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Printablepaintedlady said: KoolEaze said: Here´s a blog with some interesting thoughts on this topic, you might find it interesting, too: http://freakonomics.blogs...t/?apage=3 The readers´ comments, especially those from a Nigerian reader, are worth pondering upon. Not quite, I found that specific comment to be filled with hatred towards the African American community. It is well known that many Africans have a dislike of the unique African American culture. They don't understand it, nor do they want to. Typical response from a Nigerian that feels a sense of superiority because she is from "the motherland".Here's the thing, ridiculous is merely a POV. You can not impose that on anyone else. No one should be judged by their name. I know a guy named Hei Yu (pronounced hey you ) . That to me is a good name in Vietman, his parents named him something that has no meaning in American society where he lives and it is considered ridiculous by many that are not in his culture. This is that same thing many modern mothers are facing in an ever changing culture that names its children "Apple", "Latifa", "Feather" and other names that people will ridicule them for. The name has value to the parent, and no one else should decide for anyone what name is valuable and what name is not. To do so is racist, and only racist people would judge someone by their name and not by the content of their character. BTW.... The long post following the post made by that ignorant ass Nigerian (pen-named "sugar belly"  )is the one that is worth the read and the one that is truly worth pondering upon written by Colum Paget  .
added name of respondees edit [Edited 11/18/09 9:06am] That Nigerian woman needs to be re-educated, because Africa is the "Motherland" of all humans, so what the hell is she talking about? 
I have to agree with you though paintedlady, sad but true. Many Africans do have that attitude towards American Blacks. They associate American Blacks with "slavery" as though their people had nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade, as well as other groups that participated in it. So many of them "look down" on American born Blacks. I have quite a few Africans living in my community, and they "stick together" and don't mingle much with African-Americans. Damn shame isn't it? Only a small portion will. African-Americans have to deal with racial prejudice and false and stereotypical beliefs, towards us from many sides of the table. Sometimes I don't know how my ancestors and those after had the strength to deal with all that, but apparently they had to be some strong individuals, because many of their descendants continue to persevere and remain strong. [Edited 11/18/09 9:25am] | |
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chocolate1 said: When I was working at the private school, I had a Caucasian coworker who was pregnant with her first son. I remember asking her if she had picked out a name: She wanted to name him "Malcolm", but her mother told her "no" because it sounded "Black"!
I forgot what she did name him, but it wasn't Malcolm. 
I think that this whole thing is terrible. I hope there is some kind of resolution with the teacher.... That's interesting. One of the richest men is this country is a white man whose first name is Malcolm. Of course, he goes by his middle name, Steve, but that is only because his father went by Malcolm. I am of course talking about Malcolm S. Forbes. This will seem a bit off topic, but a name can surely have an effect on one's life. My first name is Nick. There are no nice things that rhyme with Nick, and it invited a slew of nicknames growing up. Here is a sample: Nick the Dick Nick the Prick Dickless Nicholas Nick Licks Dick Nick the Mick (I happen to be partially of Irish ancestry) One person even once asked "Who's smarter, Nick or the Stick?" I abdicated the throne in Ithaca, but now I am...
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ScarletScandal said: Condoleeza...
'nuff said. Hate on that all you want, the name Condoleeza is synonymous with achievement and as American as apple pie. I love America for that!   | |
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my name is Zinzi Emali Cambran
and i live in a small town in the middle of Worcestershire in the united kingdom hmmm ''now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, a fanatical criminal'' | |
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2elijah said: paintedlady said: Not quite, I found that specific comment to be filled with hatred towards the African American community. It is well known that many Africans have a dislike of the unique African American culture. They don't understand it, nor do they want to. Typical response from a Nigerian that feels a sense of superiority because she is from "the motherland".Here's the thing, ridiculous is merely a POV. You can not impose that on anyone else. No one should be judged by their name. I know a guy named Hei Yu (pronounced hey you ) . That to me is a good name in Vietman, his parents named him something that has no meaning in American society where he lives and it is considered ridiculous by many that are not in his culture. This is that same thing many modern mothers are facing in an ever changing culture that names its children "Apple", "Latifa", "Feather" and other names that people will ridicule them for. The name has value to the parent, and no one else should decide for anyone what name is valuable and what name is not. To do so is racist, and only racist people would judge someone by their name and not by the content of their character. BTW.... The long post following the post made by that ignorant ass Nigerian (pen-named "sugar belly" )is the one that is worth the read and the one that is truly worth pondering upon written by Colum Paget .
added name of respondees edit [Edited 11/18/09 9:06am] That Nigerian woman needs to be re-educated, because Africa is the "Motherland" of all humans, so what the hell is she talking about?  I said that she had a sense of superiority, she responded that AA people give their children weird sounding "meaningless names"... but the names she suggested are just as weird and meaningless to the American culture. Who cares what a name means if you can not pronounce it properly.
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Zinzi said: my name is Zinzi Emali Cambran
and i live in a small town in the middle of Worcestershire in the united kingdom hmmm I always loved names that start with a Z... don't know why, I just do. I almost named my son, Zephania ( a biblical name) but per request of his dad we went with a made up one.... Danzel. Still has a Z in it.  | |
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Zinzi said: my name is Zinzi Emali Cambran
and i live in a small town in the middle of Worcestershire in the united kingdom hmmm is that Welsh or summat? everyone's a fruit & nut case | |
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whistle said: Zinzi said: my name is Zinzi Emali Cambran
and i live in a small town in the middle of Worcestershire in the united kingdom hmmm is that Welsh or summat? whaa? no i was pointing out i have a very african first name (mom named me after nelson mandelas daughter) but i live in a very non-ghetto environment ''now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, a fanatical criminal'' | |
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Zinzi said: whistle said: is that Welsh or summat? whaa? no i was pointing out i have a very african first name (mom named me after nelson mandelas daughter) but i live in a very non-ghetto environment oh, it's African. i couldn't make heads or tails of your surname... 
(i was unaware that Mr Mandela's daughter has that name, too) everyone's a fruit & nut case | |
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paintedlady said: 2elijah said: That Nigerian woman needs to be re-educated, because Africa is the "Motherland" of all humans, so what the hell is she talking about? I said that she had a sense of superiority, she responded that AA people give their children weird sounding "meaningless names"... but the names she suggested are just as weird and meaningless to the American culture. Who cares what a name means if you can not pronounce it properly.
I know what you said, and I was referring to her sense of "superiority" and your comments referencing the attitudes of Africans towards American -born Blacks. The birthplace of the first known humans was in Africa, so my point was, how could she feel superior over any human being period, that it what I was referring to. [Edited 11/18/09 15:53pm] | |
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whistle said: Zinzi said: whaa? no i was pointing out i have a very african first name (mom named me after nelson mandelas daughter) but i live in a very non-ghetto environment oh, it's African. i couldn't make heads or tails of your surname...
(i was unaware that Mr Mandela's daughter has that name, too) cambrans from france i think ''now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, a fanatical criminal'' | |
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2elijah said: paintedlady said: I said that she had a sense of superiority, she responded that AA people give their children weird sounding "meaningless names"... but the names she suggested are just as weird and meaningless to the American culture. Who cares what a name means if you can not pronounce it properly.
I know what you said, and I was referring to her sense of "superiority" and your comments referencing the attitudes of Africans towards American -born Blacks. The birthplace of humans is Africa, so my point was, how could she feel superior over any human being period, that it what I was referring to. [Edited 11/18/09 9:52am] Oh  but yeah, I bet she feels "closer" to her roots because she gets to live there. | |
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    OK....I'm back. Had to kick some azzGoing to church doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. | |
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StillGotIt said: OK....I'm back. Had to kick some azzI have to go to 8th period... I'll tune in later...  "Love Hurts. Your lies, they cut me. Now your words don't mean a thing. I don't give a damn if you ever loved me..." -Cher, "Woman's World" | |
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2elijah said: paintedlady said: Not quite, I found that specific comment to be filled with hatred towards the African American community. It is well known that many Africans have a dislike of the unique African American culture. They don't understand it, nor do they want to. Typical response from a Nigerian that feels a sense of superiority because she is from "the motherland".Here's the thing, ridiculous is merely a POV. You can not impose that on anyone else. No one should be judged by their name. I know a guy named Hei Yu (pronounced hey you ) . That to me is a good name in Vietman, his parents named him something that has no meaning in American society where he lives and it is considered ridiculous by many that are not in his culture. This is that same thing many modern mothers are facing in an ever changing culture that names its children "Apple", "Latifa", "Feather" and other names that people will ridicule them for. The name has value to the parent, and no one else should decide for anyone what name is valuable and what name is not. To do so is racist, and only racist people would judge someone by their name and not by the content of their character. BTW.... The long post following the post made by that ignorant ass Nigerian (pen-named "sugar belly" )is the one that is worth the read and the one that is truly worth pondering upon written by Colum Paget .
added name of respondees edit [Edited 11/18/09 9:06am] That Nigerian woman needs to be re-educated, because Africa is the "Motherland" of all humans, so what the hell is she talking about?
I have to agree with you though paintedlady, sad but true. Many Africans do have that attitude towards American Blacks. They associate American Blacks with "slavery" as though their people had nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade, as well as other groups that participated in it. So many of them "look down" on American born Blacks. I have quite a few Africans living in my community, and they "stick together" and don't mingle much with African-Americans. Damn shame isn't it? Only a small portion will. African-Americans have to deal with racial prejudice and false and stereotypical beliefs, towards us from many sides of the table. Sometimes I don't know how my ancestors and those after had the strength to deal with all that, but apparently they had to be some strong individuals, because many of their descendants continue to persevere and remain strong. [Edited 11/18/09 9:25am] IMO, she was merely saying that, instead of giving your children "African sounding" names such as Shenqua or Rashonda or Da´Shonda or Laquan, why not keep it real and give them authentic African names from the region where most African-Americans actually stem from? Nothing really wrong with that. About Africans looking down on African-Americans....this is partly true but, having worked with many Africans ( Ghanaens, Nigerians, Kameroonians, Togolese people and Senegaleans) and having been to Nigeria myself, I can assure you that, despite some Africans looking down on African-Americans, there are millions of Africans who are very proud of African-Americans and their achievements. Tupac Shakur, Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali,Dr.J, Nas, 50Cent, and especially Denzel Washington and Will Smith and Jay-Z are regarded as heroes there. Interestingly, a very similar phenomenon can be found in the Italian and Turkish diaspora...they sense that their relatives in their respective "motherlands" look down on them and see them as cheap labor,people who had to emigrate to the USA or Europe in order to make a living but, these days, with more and more of the diaspora being in higher positions in the USA or Europe, the people in the motherlands tend to have a bit more respect for their distant relatives abroad. Same with the Africans and African-Americans....it´s a mix of looking down and feeling superior and envy and admiration at the same time. " I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?" | |
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KoolEaze said: 2elijah said: That Nigerian woman needs to be re-educated, because Africa is the "Motherland" of all humans, so what the hell is she talking about?
I have to agree with you though paintedlady, sad but true. Many Africans do have that attitude towards American Blacks. They associate American Blacks with "slavery" as though their people had nothing to do with the transatlantic slave trade, as well as other groups that participated in it. So many of them "look down" on American born Blacks. I have quite a few Africans living in my community, and they "stick together" and don't mingle much with African-Americans. Damn shame isn't it? Only a small portion will. African-Americans have to deal with racial prejudice and false and stereotypical beliefs, towards us from many sides of the table. Sometimes I don't know how my ancestors and those after had the strength to deal with all that, but apparently they had to be some strong individuals, because many of their descendants continue to persevere and remain strong. [Edited 11/18/09 9:25am] IMO, she was merely saying that, instead of giving your children "African sounding" names such as Shenqua or Rashonda or Da´Shonda or Laquan, why not keep it real and give them authentic African names from the region where most African-Americans actually stem from? Nothing really wrong with that. About Africans looking down on African-Americans....this is partly true but, having worked with many Africans ( Ghanaens, Nigerians, Kameroonians, Togolese people and Senegaleans) and having been to Nigeria myself, I can assure you that, despite some Africans looking down on African-Americans, there are millions of Africans who are very proud of African-Americans and their achievements. Tupac Shakur, Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali,Dr.J, Nas, 50Cent, and especially Denzel Washington and Will Smith and Jay-Z are regarded as heroes there. Interestingly, a very similar phenomenon can be found in the Italian and Turkish diaspora...they sense that their relatives in their respective "motherlands" look down on them and see them as cheap labor,people who had to emigrate to the USA or Europe in order to make a living but, these days, with more and more of the diaspora being in higher positions in the USA or Europe, the people in the motherlands tend to have a bit more respect for their distant relatives abroad. Same with the Africans and African-Americans....it´s a mix of looking down and feeling superior and envy and admiration at the same time. Well IMO, only an African would assume that an African American chooses a name that would "sound African". Most African Americans I know name their children names they like, regardless of root meaning. Many chose to celebrate their own unique culture which is misinterpreted as some as wanting "African" names. The AA folks I know that want their kids to have African names just give their children traditional African names. It is ignorant to think that African American people wouldn't know what a traditional African name is, its virtually calling African Americans dumb.
I too live around many Africans, but those Africans live in America, and many do not like to associate with the African Americans in their communities. They may be happy to hear about rich celebrities in America that are black, but they are a long way from respecting the culture of African Americans, and "sugar belly's" post proves that POV. | |
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paintedlady said: 2elijah said: I know what you said, and I was referring to her sense of "superiority" and your comments referencing the attitudes of Africans towards American -born Blacks. The birthplace of humans is Africa, so my point was, how could she feel superior over any human being period, that it what I was referring to. [Edited 11/18/09 9:52am] Oh but yeah, I bet she feels "closer" to her roots because she gets to live there. True, that could be the reason. They are a very proud people though. I can't get mad at them for that, but thinking you're better than another group, is totally ridiculous. [Edited 11/18/09 15:51pm] | |
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paintedlady said: KoolEaze said: IMO, she was merely saying that, instead of giving your children "African sounding" names such as Shenqua or Rashonda or Da´Shonda or Laquan, why not keep it real and give them authentic African names from the region where most African-Americans actually stem from? Nothing really wrong with that. About Africans looking down on African-Americans....this is partly true but, having worked with many Africans ( Ghanaens, Nigerians, Kameroonians, Togolese people and Senegaleans) and having been to Nigeria myself, I can assure you that, despite some Africans looking down on African-Americans, there are millions of Africans who are very proud of African-Americans and their achievements. Tupac Shakur, Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali,Dr.J, Nas, 50Cent, and especially Denzel Washington and Will Smith and Jay-Z are regarded as heroes there. Interestingly, a very similar phenomenon can be found in the Italian and Turkish diaspora...they sense that their relatives in their respective "motherlands" look down on them and see them as cheap labor,people who had to emigrate to the USA or Europe in order to make a living but, these days, with more and more of the diaspora being in higher positions in the USA or Europe, the people in the motherlands tend to have a bit more respect for their distant relatives abroad. Same with the Africans and African-Americans....it´s a mix of looking down and feeling superior and envy and admiration at the same time. Well IMO, only an African would assume that an African American chooses a name that would "sound African". Most African Americans I know name their children names they like, regardless of root meaning. Many chose to celebrate their own unique culture which is misinterpreted as some as wanting "African" names. The AA folks I know that want their kids to have African names just give their children traditional African names. It is ignorant to think that African American people wouldn't know what a traditional African name is, its virtually calling African Americans dumb.
I too live around many Africans, but those Africans live in America, and many do not like to associate with the African Americans in their communities. They may be happy to hear about rich celebrities in America that are black, but they are a long way from respecting the culture of African Americans, and "sugar belly's" post proves that POV. (Bolded part) I agree. There are still some stereotypical assumptions they hold of them, and they get that from their "local news stations" instead of actually taking the time to "get to know" the cultures of their "distant" relatives. Many would be surprised to find out how many Africans are not very educated about your average Black American. In my building, when I'm in the elevator with many of them, they speak in various African languages that I have no knowledge of as well. My oldest brother actually changed his name to an "African" name, and I try to remember to call him by his new name, but I'll always know him as "Vernon". [Edited 11/18/09 11:23am] | |
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KoolEaze said: IMO, she was merely saying that, instead of giving your children "African sounding" names such as Shenqua or Rashonda or Da´Shonda or Laquan, why not keep it real and give them authentic African names from the region where most African-Americans actually stem from? Nothing really wrong with that. time. The issue is that names like the ones mentioned have to be African sounding at all. Keeping it real? Now that's presumptuous to think that one wants to be more African. African Americans don't want African sounding names for their kids, just names they LIKE. They end up spelling names phonetically because people that are not in their culture tend to always mispronounce their names. It started with common African names that are always mispronounced due to intolerance of different cultures. Hence this new modern version of names that are hyphenated and spelled like pronunciation text from a dictionary. Don't like it? Blame the assholes in the previous generation that purposefully like to pronounce black children's names wrong out of spite because they dislike the African American culture. I grew up in that generation, what African American people do in general has purpose for its own culture. | |
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paintedlady said: ScarletScandal said: Condoleeza...
'nuff said. Hate on that all you want, the name Condoleeza is synonymous with achievement and as American as apple pie. I love America for that! I'm not hating...I'm just saying, you're name doesn't dictate your life. | |
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GetAwayFromMe said: StillGotIt said: Why would he even have a gripe against African Americans because of the names? Who the fuck has a grip against somebody over a name? I know plenty of people with these types of names who have MBA's and nothing but success, and I know people who are not so successful. This is just promoting hatred and discrimination against persons with African American names. If non whites dont sell out, then they will not be accepted and they deserve to be mistreated and judged?
Sell out to what? Having a name that isn't ridiculous? Ridiculous to who? You? People make too big a deal over names. That's what's ridiculous. | |
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JustErin said: GetAwayFromMe said: Sell out to what? Having a name that isn't ridiculous? Ridiculous to who? You? People make too big a deal over names. That's what's ridiculous.  [Edited 11/18/09 15:48pm] | |
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I am sooooo sick of this nonsense. I have to admit, I never had more fun making a teacher sweat. I spoke nice as pie and hammered some hard ass questions as if he was being deposed.
I didn't have time to tell you guys earlier that I had already filed a complaint with the principal of the school (I had at the same time requested this conference.) The school supposedly didn't identify the person complaining but it's obvious...she is the only African American in that class and she offered up some respectful protest the moment this racist article was distributed. The principal didn't get back to me fast enough so now its with the school board. Since filing that complaint with the principal, this asshole has been retaliating against my 12 year old--even lowering her grade an entire letter for not writing her name on a single art project (mind you...this project only required one piece...she did 4). I smiled all nicey nice and let him talk, and he clearly thought my calm demeanor meant that I was stupid. Then I made sure he over clarified shit that he had said and before you know it, with my pleasant smile I had him backed into a corner based on his own statements. He was stuttering. That azz even made reference to me "punching in" at work. He kept changing his story as to why he messed with her grade. Now I'm gonna straight up sue that prick for discrimination against my minor child. See if he likes our ethnic names after he is done writing out a nice fat check for punitive damanges. Poor stupid bastard. I'm gonna rip him a new one. He has nooooo idea what I do for a living.....or how much I dislike people who mess with children Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. | |
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JustErin said: GetAwayFromMe said: Sell out to what? Having a name that isn't ridiculous? Ridiculous to who? You? People make too big a deal over names. That's what's ridiculous.  Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. | |
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ScarletScandal said: paintedlady said: Hate on that all you want, the name Condoleeza is synonymous with achievement and as American as apple pie. I love America for that! I'm not hating...I'm just saying, you're name doesn't dictate your life. Oh, I misread that... my apologies but I am a Rican and the name Condoleeza is a variation on a name that is Latin (Condolisa) and considered popular with the aristocrats of the previous centuries. That's an ol' school high siddity Latino name. I never saw it as "ghetto". But that's how a latino would associate that name. | |
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JustErin said: GetAwayFromMe said: Sell out to what? Having a name that isn't ridiculous? Ridiculous to who? You? People make too big a deal over names. That's what's ridiculous.  !!!! | |
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StillGotIt said: I am sooooo sick of this nonsense. I have to admit, I never had more fun making a teacher sweat. I spoke nice as pie and hammered some hard ass questions as if he was being deposed.
I didn't have time to tell you guys earlier that I had already filed a complaint with the principal of the school (I had at the same time requested this conference.) The school supposedly didn't identify the person complaining but it's obvious...she is the only African American in that class and she offered up some respectful protest the moment this racist article was distributed. The principal didn't get back to me fast enough so now its with the school board. Since filing that complaint with the principal, this asshole has been retaliating against my 12 year old--even lowering her grade an entire letter for not writing her name on a single art project (mind you...this project only required one piece...she did 4). I smiled all nicey nice and let him talk, and he clearly thought my calm demeanor meant that I was stupid. Then I made sure he over clarified shit that he had said and before you know it, with my pleasant smile I had him backed into a corner based on his own statements. He was stuttering. That azz even made reference to me "punching in" at work. He kept changing his story as to why he messed with her grade. Now I'm gonna straight up sue that prick for discrimination against my minor child. See if he likes our ethnic names after he is done writing out a nice fat check for punitive damanges. Poor stupid bastard. I'm gonna rip him a new one. He has nooooo idea what I do for a living.....or how much I dislike people who mess with children Was there any explanation given to you as to why the art teacher would use such an article in class? You said there was no explanation given but did they explain it after your talk with the principal? Has this teacher ever made any racist comments in class? What was that line about you punching in at work all about? That´s a very insensitive and stupid remark.Did he apologize for that? One a more funny note...after reading this,I´m really curious about three things.....your job, your daughter´s name and the future relationship between your daughter and her art teacher. " I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?" | |
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StillGotIt said: I am sooooo sick of this nonsense. I have to admit, I never had more fun making a teacher sweat. I spoke nice as pie and hammered some hard ass questions as if he was being deposed.
I didn't have time to tell you guys earlier that I had already filed a complaint with the principal of the school (I had at the same time requested this conference.) The school supposedly didn't identify the person complaining but it's obvious...she is the only African American in that class and she offered up some respectful protest the moment this racist article was distributed. The principal didn't get back to me fast enough so now its with the school board. Since filing that complaint with the principal, this asshole has been retaliating against my 12 year old--even lowering her grade an entire letter for not writing her name on a single art project (mind you...this project only required one piece...she did 4). I smiled all nicey nice and let him talk, and he clearly thought my calm demeanor meant that I was stupid. Then I made sure he over clarified shit that he had said and before you know it, with my pleasant smile I had him backed into a corner based on his own statements. He was stuttering. That azz even made reference to me "punching in" at work. He kept changing his story as to why he messed with her grade. Now I'm gonna straight up sue that prick for discrimination against my minor child. See if he likes our ethnic names after he is done writing out a nice fat check for punitive damanges. Poor stupid bastard. I'm gonna rip him a new one. He has nooooo idea what I do for a living.....or how much I dislike people who mess with children I am so proud of you for standing up to this. I have had too many experiences with some teachers "messing with my son" when he was in grade school. They hated that he questioned a topic being discussed in class or asking why they are not learning about a particular topic. You did good. There is no reason why a topic of a particular race group's names. should be the topic of discussion in an art class nor should mockery be made of a particular groups' names in the first place. I wonder what his intentions were for singling out the birthnames of a particular race group. [Edited 11/18/09 15:50pm] | |
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All I know is I never wanted anyone to know that my middle name was Shackelford! My Legacy
http://prince.org/msg/8/192731 | |
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StillGotIt said: Okay....my child's teacher handed out this article in his ART class which is full of 12 and 13 year olds! Its an old ass article, no explanation was given, no purpose given, no conversations with the students. (here is a link to the full article: http://abcnews.go.com/202...266&page=1
Here is a quote from the article which just set my damn hair on fire "A distinctively black name tells us that a person typically comes from a neighborhood that has higher poverty, lower income, more likely to have teen mothers, etc." It is important to note that at no point does the article condemn this practice of discriminating, but instead specifically warns against selecting such names.  Are these teachers friggin crazy? WTF!!!!! I am meeting with him in a few hours and I want to bite his damn head off.yes the teachers are crazy b/c in the face of pop culture and celebrity, names aren't what they used to be and nobody cares that much anymore save for old farts stuck in the 60s. And wtf? More likely to have teen mothers? I had a teacher named Swan who was born to old parents so he said. Yep....HE!!!! A white man named Swan. | |
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