This part one of a multi-part series of animal ownership threads I'd like to start.


This is probably the most heated or controversial to a lot of folks, and with good reason. I've gotten a lot of slack in the past for my comments on this matter, but my opinion is unwaivering.

I do not consider vegans and vegitarians who own meat eating pets to be real vegans/vegitarians. One can argue that I have an arbitrary system that they'd rather not adhere too based on my own prejudices, and that's fair enough. But they will never be considered true vegan/vegitarian in my eyes.

Now before, anyone lambastes me for hypocrisy, I also judge myself by those standards---I don't consider myself a true vegan or vegitarian either. I've had to take care of a cat for 3 years now, and thankfully I get to hand him back to my sister very shortly. But because of this, I never considered myself a vegan/vegitarian. At best, I'm a flexitarian.


That being said, my view is that if you're doing it for health, then the ownership of cats/dogs doesn't really violate your intentions, does it? I mean, you're only concerned about how the plumbing works in that respect. And there's nothing wrong with that. My decision in late 2007 to go raw/vegan was based soley on health.
But if you embark on this lifestyle as a moral effort, I simply don't understand reconciling this with the ownership of meat eating animals, especially if you adopted them after your commitment.

Is it better than being a full blown meat eater? yes, of course? But I still don't think you're a vegan/vegitarian, and regardless of what you have to say on the matter, my opinion is unwaivering. (yeah, lambaste me. I don't care ).

Cats and dogs are cute. The evoke a primal, visceral response in most of us. But this doesn't change the fact that the pet food industry is an extension of the human food industry: http://www.bornfreeusa.or...re=1&p=359

It doesn't change the fact that these animals are carnivors, bred through evolution to have these charming traits--they're still killers of other animals.





So what is your thoughts?

I don't think any pet-owning vegan or vegetarian people really care what label you feel is accurate for them.

Ugh, I hate this topic. I say everything in moderation.

Lots of vegans who eat soy on a daily basis are getting cancer...there is an estrogen like substance called isoflavones that stimulates estrogen receptors. Not good!!!

But dogs and cats don't have people digestive systems.
My ex-gf who was vegan, tried to feed her cat that she loved dearly vegan food. He had multiple health problems as a result.
so where people vegans can have very varied diets and should take supplements, it's very difficult to get a pet to do that.

just my two cents.

ButterscotchPimp said:

I think his point isn't that you should try to feed your pets food that isn't good for them (which is absolutely true, no one should feed a dog or cat a vegan diet), but that veggies who own meat-eating pets are contributing to industries they are morally opposed to, and that's somehow hypocritical.

CarrieMpls said:

This is the typical response I get. Very Pavlovian responses actually.

(not aimed at you)
[Edited 10/27/09 8:00am]

Cats and Dogs and feeding them in proper healthy ways ~ to me, REALLY has very little bearing on a Human choosing to be a Veggie only type of eater

So hell yes you can be a veggie person and own a CAT or DOG and feed them the meats they want/need /like

( veggie )Pet owners ( some/most ) may really not give a flying fuck what others think about them based on feeding meat eating pets MEAT




seriously - this is a real concern for some ? ... really

CarrieMpls said:

yes. It serves no purpose to own an animal an mistreat it too. That would be cruel. But this is true whether the animal is a cat or a rabbit, and not part of my point (As you pointed out)

It's only hypocritical in my eyes, if their intention is indeed in opposition to these industries and a reflection of some moral calling.


Now, I'm not saying that it's a waste of time to even bother being vegan/vegetarian. And I'm not saying that it isn't a step in the right direction, even if they chose to own these animals. But certainly, it's a moral delima that cant just be justified by "well, I'm nurturing this cute little fuzzy animal--I don't want it to suffer."



edit
[Edited 10/27/09 8:10am]

CarrieMpls said:

Ohhhh ...

well I have never met a person that on some level is not hypocritical

so ...

CarrieLee said:

I don't think tofu is real food--not really good food anyways. Many types beans have very strong chemicals that are bad for human consumption. And yes, moderation is key.


There are so many recipes that call for soy, in which combination of mushrooms can replace. Though I thought the estrogen theory was still debated?

Imago said:

But you're attacking the label. The label really only applies to one's diet. I can be vegetarian and wear leather and fur and still call myself vegetarian - regardless of the reasons I choose to be vegetarian.

If you want to think it's hypocritical to own a meat-eating pet while not eating meat yourself, knock yourself out. The only thing I will say is I would hazard to guess most of my veggie friends are far more educated on where their pet's food comes from than most folks. There are pet food companies I don't support because of how they do business, treat animals, etc.

Mach said:

I've never a met a vegan who owned pets to admit they were hypocritical on the matter. Rather you get very long winded reasons why I'm just being a fuckbrain.

Imago said:

I get the argument. I'm vegan, but not a card carrying member of PETA or anything. For me it's a dietary choice not a political statement. In layman's terms, i don't want to eat a cow but i'll wear the fuck out of one.

So yeah, for the card carrying PETA diehards, owning a pet is a tricky situation that presents some issues that are sort of at odds with one another.

Imago said:

Oh we humans and our egos sometimes - ya know

Imago said:

It is still being debated but I work in a lab with a bunch of scientists and I tend to believe them! Plus there have been an alarming amount of people I know who are being diagnosed with cancer and they are vegans who don't drink or smoke. Makes me think....

Like I say, everything in moderation.

Mach said:

Whether they care about what I think or not is not really part of the debate.


However, your opinion that they can consider themselves true vegan--is this predicated on the fact that it may not always be a moral decision, but one based on health?

Or are you saying, depending on one's point of view, they can label themselves according to their own chosen ethics?

ButterscotchPimp said:

And I take no issues with either kind of vegan really. I'm more along the lines of you're type when I do go vegan.

I'm just interested to see how once balances out such issues when it is a moral choice and not just one for health.

Imago said:

Imago said:

then why the pretense of an open discussion?

Mach said:

Gotcha.

I'm not saying vegans with meat eating pets are the Joe Liberman of vegans, but .... oh fuck it, I guess I am saying that.

CarrieLee said:

Yeah, but there are lots of things that we've been told are "safe" (like for example, sodium fluoride in our drinking water and triclosan which they're putting in everything from dishwashing liquid to toothpaste) that cause cancer. so even if you're vegan, that in itself doesn't mean that you're "safer" or "healthier" necessarily.


HOWEVER, with that said i really don't get people who with all the information available today about our food that really still see benefits in eating dairy and meat. i'll take my chances with tofu everyday of the week.
[Edited 10/27/09 8:14am]

whistle said:

It was a baitastic baitlexic, baitmorphic, baitvisceral question from the city of baitville, in the provice of Quebait, on the planet Baitune to get folks to engage in a discussion that otherwise would not be very interesting to most folks.

PS. It's working.

Interesting topic. Also reminds me why I stopped labeling myself altho I'd say I adhere to a vegetarian/vegan diet.

Where my pet food comes from is a concern of mine and I try to find the best quality with the most humane souces but don't know if I've been successful. I'm constantly researching.

My dietary choice is primarily for health but that does not exclude my attempt to live a more compassionate and conscious life for all living beings.

JackieBlue said:

This is the balanced way of thinking I think I'm trying to strive for, but I still label myself.

I'm finding that whether trying to be kind to animals or to just simply be more 'green', it's all gray matter.

I mean, it's like debating paper or plastic--how does one come to a conclusion? I find it fascinating that modern life has given us so many choices, but none without consequences.

Imago said:

I think you actually pose an interesting point with this one... if its a moral choice then surely owning a cat or dog would go against your principles because they eat meat (or what is assumed to be meat... it certainly doesn't look or smell like it)

I've been a vegetarian for... actually I'm not sure how many years but guessing its probably pushing ten years now... I'm not even sure why I decided it... I think it was more the taste and texture than anything and then probably over time a few of my own opinions at the meat industry combined with the initial points. Yet I also have a pet dog and 3 cats which I obviously feed meat... i've never thought about it before but you may have a good point. Nothing would stop me from owning dogs and cats though lol.

I've no strong opinions on the subject but I feel like you want me to lambaste you.

Or give you 'slack'.

technically, of course being a vegetarian only refers to what you actually eat. So it doesn't matter if your cat, dog, son, daughter, or husband eats meat. If you don't eat meat you're a vegetarian. FACE!!

ultrablue said:

Slab, ultrablue. I want you to give me your slab.

Kow Jai?

NDRU said:

Come here, darling

Come here, darling