i'm usually described as awake-acting.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

ZombieKitten said:

This is my feeling overall.
I do recognize that some folk might use it without intent, however I almost think some of those folk have maybe been conditioned to do so.
I'll never like the term.

I've jokingly said things like "I swear, Ron must be straight" when he does things like leave his dirty clothes on the floor or not put something back, because I often hear my straight women friends complain of such things of their husbands. But I would never describe his masculinity as "straight acting" as levels of masculinity have nothing to do with heterosexuality.

Hello, we all worship a straight girly dude who squeals and wears high heels.

johnart said:

leave Dan out of this conversation.

ernestsewell said:

BULL SHIT!!!!!

the bears treat me me like shit. why because i look young and i'm skinny.

all clicks of queens treat opposing clicks like they are less than them.

ernestsewell said:

What does this term mean? Bears...Im realizing that i have lived a sheltered life..

tinaz said:

tinaz said:

But big guys, hairy guys, robust types. Russell Crowe in Gladiator could be a bear. Billy Mays was a bear type. But a thinner, but hairy guy could be a bear. A skinny guy could be an otter. "Bear" is quickly becoming a more general term for the alternative to the normal Abercombie and Fitch clones.

xenon said:

can you define straight acting? cause to me, as my crush, a former army ranger who's mom didn't believe he was gay til he brought home his first boyfriend and most people who work out at his gym don't think he's gay when they first meet him, told me anyone who claims to be straight acting and sucks cock doesn't understand what it means to be straight.

I never thought about it either way but it's interesting to read and think about. I'm not sure if using "masculine" is any better, though. Doesn't it just put a different label on it? Is it masculine to suck a dick?

I never thought about it either way but it's interesting to read and think about. I'm not sure if using "masculine" is any better, though. Doesn't it just put a different label on it? Is it masculine to suck a dick?

ehuffnsd said:

HELL YEAH!!! On 2 and 3.

That depends. Is it somehow intrinsically feminine to suck dick?

Someone on a thread a while back said homophobic attitudes came from the idea that to be in the female role during sex acts (bottoming, suckin dick, and more) is degrading. Well if that's true, what is it but degrading when a woman does it?

What this conversation essentially comes down to again IMO is gender roles and what's considered gender-appropriate behaviour, both in the mainstream and in the gay community. Being "straight-acting" is perceived as a desirable trait by some because being obviously gay implies to some people sexual passivity, something women are supposed to perform. Women's sexual roles and sexuality are in our society something to be ashamed of or controlled. It's degrading to be like a woman.

This thread has given me absolutely LOADS to think about... Please keep it going, guys.

I gotta go to work soon, and need to make this quick - so it might not voice my thoughts properly - but I guess I've always considered myself 'straight acting'. Not in any derogatory, self-hating way... however, I think there is an element of 'conditioning' involved, which is imposed externally. I think if you don't act THIS way or THAT way, it confuses the hell out of some people. You're seen as 'straight acting', 'being butch', your lighter moments are seen as 'camp', if you're not in everyone's face you're 'aloof', or if you're in everyone's face you're 'too much'. Labels, labels, labels. It's boring.


An example: I've worked with a lot of straight men over the years and - a while back - when I started in a new place, I remember those first few weeks very clearly. It was very awkward and quite painful. Aside from the fact that I am not someone who INSTANTLY shows all my cards (and that's just the way I was brought up), I could really see the on a lot of faces. I'd say 'Hi', or smile in the corridor - just being polite - and get a '' or, sometimes look. Really unsettling and damaging to my ego. I couldn't work out what it was that I was doing wrong or why people were reacting this way. Then it clicked: aside from the fact that I was treading on their 'turf' - and presented a 'threat' - they, like most people, couln't work me out. Was I a 'camp' straight guy? Or a 'butch' gay guy. Or bi? Not every straight bloke is like this, obviously, but it's amazing how - when the light went off - people started relaxing and being more friendlier. When you present something that people do not immediately recognise (or are even drawn to) it puts their panties in a bunch.

Again: labels, labels, labels.

Plus, it takes some people by surprise sometimes when I'm not the immediate pushover they presume. My kindness in not a weakness. I've had some instances over the years where even the straightest guys have been taken by surprise because I've stood my ground over certain things. It's quite funny.


There's so much I could say on this subject but I look forward to coming back to it; you've all given me a lot of things to think about.

tinaz said:

meow85 said:

I think this is probably THE most important point.. and really explains the
"why" behind the use of terms like "straight acting" (in any context) and
"Gay" (as a derogatory term).

It all stems from gender roles and Male dominance in society. It's exactly
the issue Madonna was addressing in her song What It Feels Like For A
Girl. "Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots
cuz its OK to be a boy. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cuz you think that being a girl is degrading". This is what it all boils down
to. We may live in an allegedly egalitarian society, but the idea that females
are somehow lesser citizens than men still pervades almost subconsciously
and surfaces in language, most obviously in the words men choose to use
to insult other men.

I can remember when I first heard the word "Gay" used as an insult, and at
the time, how shocked I was that anyone considered this acceptable. It then
became almost the norm, to the point that it practically had two meanings.
After my initial shock of hearing the word used in that context, I realized
that actually, women have had to put up with the same thing for much, much
longer. Phrases like "Don't be such a girl's blouse" or "You're such a woman!"
have been around for years. For a man to act like a woman is apparently the
ultimate insult, and the "That's so gay!" insult is just a continuation of this
"tradition". Virtually no-one would find a similar racially based insult
acceptable, yet apparently it's quite acceptable to use these gender (role)
based ones.

Finally getting back to the point, the term "straight acting" is just yet
another manifestation of this ingrained societal sexism. That acting like
a "woman" (be that by being effeminate, emotionally articulate, artistic,
the so-called sexually passive partner etc.) makes one a second class
citizen, and by extension, that women themselves are still second class
citizens. It just serves as yet another reminder that for all our
progressiveness, society as a whole STILL can't shake off it's sexist,
misogynistic roots and a basic underlying level.



Of course, I may just be reading too much into it.

tinaz said:

I never thought about it either way but it's interesting to read and think about. I'm not sure if using "masculine" is any better, though. Doesn't it just put a different label on it? Is it masculine to suck a dick?

ehuffnsd said:

that's not Tom Sizemore, is it?


great name for a bear anyway, you must agree...

Meh.

It's just a label to me. If you tell them to stop using the supposed self-hating "straight acting" title, they'll say masculine and mean the same thing. They'll still advertise themselves as something "other" than the raging queen on the catwalk down at your local gay disco.

They're advertising a desirable trait, regardless of the label you hang on it. I've met gay men who claim to be very happy and proud of their feminine traits, but who obviously would jump at the chance to date a masculine gay man if they came across. Hell, most of you who interact with me in orgnotes are looking for a 'man' and not a 'girl'. That's not to say that you see those traits in me, but that it's at least what yall have admitted to me.

The problem is that the reasons for your attraction to these traits are multifaceted. A 'strait' acting/looking gay man is less likely to become the target of harassment, fag-bashing, snickering, and all manner of things that make gay life more complicated. A strait-acting gay man is also more likely to reinforce all the things that you've been taught to desire in a man in 'normal' society.

Thus, gay men who can pull off the 'straight act' and those who actually really do behave accordingly in a natural way, are more desirable by in large. It's only natural they would then advertise this trait to attract each other and when it fancies them, one of you girls. It's a way of getting assured ass.

I always thought that this was an American hangup, but it isn't. It's in England, Germany, France and even here in Thailand--they call it "like a man" here Just picture gay thai men talking like Swan from those Mad TV skits.. "I like you cause you...act like a man"

I personally think most guys should stop labeling themselves as straight acting cause behind closed doors, they turn into Kimono wearin' queens anyway. 99% of them are ACTING. The other 1% still like Madonna and cry while watching shows on Lifetime television. I mean, GuRRLL, please.

The deeper issue is how they unintentionally create a 2 class caste system in which the 'boys' can have the creme of the crop so to speak, and the 'girls' who have to deal with the burden of discrimination, harassment, and the like, are relegated to an almost cartoonish second class. The unfairness of all this was that it was the queens and 'girls' who faught back at StoneWall. It's the queens who voice their opinions most loudly. And it's the queens who've learned to really respect themselves.

I'm not 'out' in real life. My reasons are more complicated than 'shame' but I'm not going to even bother going into them. Suffice it to say, I'm not out. But from what I've witnessed, the straight acting gays aren't 100% out either. Part of the 'act' is to deflect attention from themselves. Part of the act is to deal with their own unresolved shame, me thinks. The label 'straight acting' not only serves to make them more desirable to other gay men, but it also helps them cope with their own still-lingering shame. For example, why say that one of your traits is feminine when you can just call it 'boyish', why call it camp when you can just call it 'playful'. It helps them stay partly in the closet.
The very very small percentage that are truly straight acting also have terrible haircuts and dress really boring. A shame, really.

Anyways, I guess I don't have a big problem with the labeling because regardless of the label, they're still going to try and identify themselves as something other than the camp queen to get your attention.
And I appreciate their efforts cause I don't want to fuck that camp queen. It makes it easier for me to distinguish between the two, because lordy let me tell ya--some of yall are just camp queens in wolve's clothing.


So to sum it up, a rose by any other name is still a pansy. And the pansies are doing all the work and getting no credit. But I'd rather fuck the rose.


.
[Edited 7/25/09 6:28am]

Imago said:

Although somewhat different. I've been called the 'straightest gay man they know" by several people.
I am into sports, hate shopping, not a size queen, not interested in sleeping with someone who's not my type, most of my male friends are straight . . . .
None of this is an effort to hide.
I don't think I'm straight acting. Just myself which included being masculine.
I don't know that I can be out and 'straight acting'?

meow85 said:

I think this is probably THE most important point.. and really explains the
"why" behind the use of terms like "straight acting" (in any context) and
"Gay" (as a derogatory term).

It all stems from gender roles and Male dominance in society. It's exactly
the issue Madonna was addressing in her song What It Feels Like For A
Girl. "Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots
cuz its OK to be a boy. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cuz you think that being a girl is degrading". This is what it all boils down
to. We may live in an allegedly egalitarian society, but the idea that females
are somehow lesser citizens than men still pervades almost subconsciously
and surfaces in language, most obviously in the words men choose to use
to insult other men.

I can remember when I first heard the word "Gay" used as an insult, and at
the time, how shocked I was that anyone considered this acceptable. It then
became almost the norm, to the point that it practically had two meanings.
After my initial shock of hearing the word used in that context, I realized
that actually, women have had to put up with the same thing for much, much
longer. Phrases like "Don't be such a girl's blouse" or "You're such a woman!"
have been around for years. For a man to act like a woman is apparently the
ultimate insult, and the "That's so gay!" insult is just a continuation of this
"tradition". Virtually no-one would find a similar racially based insult
acceptable, yet apparently it's quite acceptable to use these gender (role)
based ones.

Finally getting back to the point, the term "straight acting" is just yet
another manifestation of this ingrained societal sexism. That acting like
a "woman" (be that by being effeminate, emotionally articulate, artistic,
the so-called sexually passive partner etc.) makes one a second class
citizen, and by extension, that women themselves are still second class
citizens. It just serves as yet another reminder that for all our
progressiveness, society as a whole STILL can't shake off it's sexist,
misogynistic roots and a basic underlying level.



Of course, I may just be reading too much into it.

BorisFishpaw said:

No, I think you've pretty much got it.

We in the western world have it a hell of a lot better than many countries when it comes to gender inequality, but we're nowhere near as egalitarian as we like to pat ourselves on the backs for being.

I'm not proud to say that even I, a young woman who identifies strongly with feminist ideals and has no shame in calling myself a feminist, have used "girl" or "woman" in some form as an insult. And recently, too. It just slips out of my mouth from time to time without even thinking about it. And I know I'm not the only one who's done it, either. I think it's deeply telling abut our society that even people who should know better; who object to such language and ideas, still can make use of insults that clearly highlight a gender and sex hierarchy without even meaning to.

johnart said:

LOL @ Skipping down the street. I'd pay to see that! (And I'd do it with you and the hubby.)

I agree with the bolded statement. I got what you were saying. I've said for years that despite whether we're male, female, straight, gay, black, white, Asian, fat, thin, short, or tall, we all have one thing in common: We're human beings. Our pain might come from different sources, but it always feels the same. The opposite is true for Love, Joy, Elation, etc.

Being gay is about 10% of who I am as a person. I don't shop gay, I don't surf the web gay (except an Adam4Adam or Bear411 visit at times). I don't drive gay. I don't drink water gay. I'm just Ernest, and I happen to be gay. Just like Barack Obama is just a guy, who happens to be black. etc etc.

We're on the same page.

I just want to say - and forgive me if I'm taking this thread in a different direction - but this topic, and what you guys have written, has really put a spring in my step the last few days. It's given me a lot confidence just to be myself. And I really appreciate that. I was even talking about it on the way out Saturday night... it has set off a few brain cells, to say the least.


A question: for those of you who are confident in your sexuality, or make no bones about it, how do others' perceive you? Or how do they react to you? I'm not the most confident guy personality-wise; I can be pretty shy, sometimes. But, in myself, I am very confident. The dichotomy/conflict that causes is something else entirely but I often notice how taken aback some straight guys are when they meet me. After years and years of almost apologising for my existence, it's like some guys really are shocked that I have the 'audacity' (if that's what you want to call it) to be... just me, I guess. I don't match the stereotype that they'd already created in their heads. I'm hoping that has come across the right way, and there's far more I could say to illustrate my point, but I just sometimes catch certain guys being flummoxed by it. I'm interested to know what you guys experience.