Tremolina said:

You miss the point completely...

The issue isn't about the weapon...the issue is about what causes someone to use violence in the first place. We mistakenly think that a mere bout of anger will cause even the most peaceful among us to act out this way, and the ease and availablity of a violent weapon just spurs us along. Nothing in the actual research of violent crimes suggest that.

And while the kid may not have been killed if no gun was around, I can damn well guarantee you that this nutcase would have acted out in a violent way regardless. Maybe the kid would have lived if he had not had access to a gun, we don't know...but is a child being stabbed numerous times and living really THAT much of an improvement on the situation? Would him being beaten in the head with a nearby rock or club and possibly endure brain damage have been THAT much more preferrable? I'm not really into trying to say one horrendous, violent act is "better" than another. We focus on the death rate instead of on the rate of voilence...that's a mistake. Remember the young boy who was set on fire in a motel room by his father? It was like 3rd degree burns over 80% of his body. Absolutely horrific. Are we really going to say that scenario is a "much better" one than being shot?

People who act out in this violent a way overwhelmingly act out this way whether or not there is an easily available weapon. Which was my point. Focusing on the fact that a gun was used--or what the fight was over--ignores the real issues, the real things that caused this to happen.

Put another way, with that story about the guy who was arrested for alledgely raping and killing a baby, it was said that he was addicted to cocaine. Hardly anyone really went all out in condemning the use of cocaine as a result, though. No statistics on cocaine-related violence were brought up. No calls for even more strict drug laws, or of how much danger we're putting "thousands of others" in by not cracking down on cocaine users and dealers.

Tremolina said:

I know first hand that an abuser will hurt or kill a child regardless if a gun is handy or not. Many people who own guns do not kill or hurt people. Its the child that sets off an abuser, not having a gun. I also know that if we took away all guns that some of these nut jobs would still find a way to hurt children.
Do you really think that this man wouldn't have hurt this child? Do you think that this was the 1st hostile act against this child? I am sure it wasn't.
People don't "snap", they usually act out what they are thinking or feeling.
We as a society give people excuses when we refuse to believe just how easy it is to hurt a child.

Hell, if you castrate a pedophile, that person will still find a way to sexually abuse a child. It's not the weapon per se, but the mind of the person who yields it.
[Edited 6/9/09 10:28am]

SUPRMAN said:

The entitlement complex is the problem here. The NRA has whipped people up into this fearful frenzy that their "right" will be taken away which leads them to obsess on guns to the point of mania.

There was a dateline show last night about a man who shot his neighbors dead over them overstepping the property line. His supposed property line veered off into their DRIVEWAY, the driveway they used to get to their house. He confronted them many times over it and ultimately placed a huge boulder in the way so they don't cross his property line.

The couple frustrated, set to destroy the boulder and he comes down with his gun and shoots both of them, the woman in the back, in "self defense". They lived in the woods with unlimited amounts of space but this freakazoid feels emboldened by this entitlement complex to solve his issues through the barrel of the gun. He said he felt no guilt becuase he had a right to self defense

The NRA needs to be destroyed.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

and the police agencies needs to stop selling old guns so they don't end up on the fucking streets.

That story was all over the news yesterday since I live in GA. They interviewed the little boy's friend and it made me cry to watch this little kid crying for his friend. They were going to play and swim all summer. His friend was so sad and distraught, my heart broke watching him.

His grandfather will die in jail or get death. The community's response and it being a child makes me think he won't get off easily. So sad. How do you shoot a 6 year old for cutting into the watermelon too early?

Tremolina said:

The guy was clearly nuts to begin with if he killed a kid over a piece of watermelon. I wouldn't be surprised to hear abuse had been going on in that home for years.

But at the same time, it can't be ignored that the U.S. has a shockingly high rate of gun-related violence. And this is with having proportionately fewer firearms per capita than many other western countries, including Canada. It's not that the States has guns that's the problem, it's the attitude of entitlement and mindset of guns as a necessity that is.

meow85 said:

I agree with you wholeheartedly.
We have a nation of f*cked up crazy people running around thinking that they can do whatever the HELL they want. Americans are so egocentric and self-righteous at times that common sense, respect, dignity and accountability don't even factor in the equation.
Take away the guns, and you still have a nation of whackos.
We need to deal with the PROBLEM, not the instrument of destruction.

...and BTW, I all FOR gun control. I don't mind gun responsible ownership, but honetsly, there's NO reason why ANYONE should own a semi-automatic armor-piercing weapon unless you're on the front lines in Afghanistan.

PurpleJedi said:

The instrument comes into play simply becauase of how the NRA cultivates the belief that you come out of the womb with a gun in your hand like it's another arm!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Yeah, the NRA is an instrument of destruction all onto itself.

I'm just hoping that one day someone sues them out of existence the same way that the KKK was castrated by that lawsuit way-back-when.

PurpleJedi said:

I agree that the NRA is a big part of the problem. Not the sole cause because obviously other factors are at play, but snip their balls off and we might see a shift in attitude , with any luck.

Tremolina said:

Could I see that stat . . . . ?

Aren't we all at risk of being shot?

PurpleJedi said:

There's no reason people need to wear jewelry either, or own a Mercedes, or a lot of things in life we take pleasure in.
The U.S. Constitution doesn't address responsible gun ownership, just ownership.
But amending the Constitution isn't going to prevent gun deaths. If you're going to get life for killing someone, an enhancement for using an illegal firearm isn't much of a deterrent.

PurpleJedi said:

If that could be done, don't you think it would've happened?

Tremolina said:

nah, he would just killed everybody with a knife or a beat them to death with a bat. violence will never end as long as there are people living.

btw, what is responsible gun ownership? the whole purpose of having a gun is that you will someday want to use it.

SUPRMAN said:

So there's no room for moderation in your world then?

If I understand your comment correctly, since I can own one of THESE

Then I should be allowed to own one of THESE
RIGHT????
Am I understanding you correctly?

DesireeNevermind said:

Responsible as in; used for hunting or kept locked away in a box.

There are plenty of people who keep guns in the home for protection and are smart enough to keep them out of reach of children.

And what I MEANT with my subsequent statement was that owning one of THESE
which is used to hunt deer or bears or what have you...


...is alot different than owning one of THESE
which is basically a weapon of mass destruction

can I ask - do people need licences to have guns in USA?
can anyone just walk in and get whichever gun they fancy?

PurpleJedi said:

Fat chance...the NRA has Washington D.C. in their hip pocket.

PurpleJedi said:

I grew up in a house that was heavily armed, but it was well understood that the guns remained away from us kids, and we children knew that they were dangerous, not to be touched, nor looked at, and were for our parents to protect our home, period. Those weapons at the bottom though, are those really available for sale to the general public???? They look like something used in guerilla warfare or during a military coup ...WTH???

DesireeNevermind said:

You know what, following your thinking you could just give people any kind of weapon they like.

They will kill eachother anyway.


So what about the loss of tens of thousands CHILDREN because people have so many guns.


What about the millions who remain at risk?

Tremolina said:

While guns wreak more havoc than knives and other weapons, people will always kill people. That's what makes humanity so ugly at times. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any gun control. I'm saying that while its good to eliminate these guerilla style weapons, gun violence will not cease and violence in an of itself will not cease. That man was gonna kill that child over that watermelon. The fact that cops had been called before shows he had a history of violence. what happened was inevitable i think.

ZombieKitten said:

In parts of this country you can go to gun shows and buy as many as you want with no problem. There is supposed to be some regulation but this happens every day and nobody ever does anything about it. There are exposes showing undercover people buying guns without registrations, in a matter of minutes and without any hindrance. But the gun shows go on. daily.

Tremolina said:

One question for you;

Do you honestly believe that by outlawing private gun ownership, there will be no more gun deaths?

The answer is NO.

I have family in Honduras. A few years ago, they capitulated to outside pressures and made private gun ownership practically illegal.

Do me a favor and google stats on the crime rate in Honduras.

The Maras (gangs) have taken over the country. Ordinary citizens cannot bear arms, but the gangs are armed to the hilt.

I don't know how other nations have managed to de-arm their criminals, but I just can't see how the Bloods, MS-13 and Hell's Angels are going to willingly surrender their weapons.

PurpleJedi said:

No I do not believe "there will be no more gun deaths".
Nor have I implied that.
I believe tho', better yet I KNOW that the amount of gun deaths would drop if people could not bare arms. The statistics prove it beyond it a doubt.



I am aware of the state of security in Honduras and other Central American countries. I was in costa rica a while ago actually and witnessed firsthand gang members carrying guns on the streets, dealing and using dope and a corrupt police that does not act. Better yet, the police robbed me and dropped me off at that worst place in town, where the next day was going to be a shoot out.

It's a very worrying situation, but THAT has nothing to do with not being able to own a gun legally. It does have EVERYTHING to do with a violent culture being bred over time by an incompetent government and a corrrupt and criminal police force, that doesn't fight crime but that encites the violence, deals in guns and drugs itself and is corrupt to the bone.

--
[Edited 6/10/09 12:50pm]

Tremolina said:

EXACTLY!!!!!

PurpleJedi said:

that's probably not possible, black market arms dealing will always be there.

A lot of folks who became criminals from a one-off crazy moment shooting may never become criminals at all if they didn't have a gun. How many homicides in the states are by folks with no previous record that have just snapped and pulled out their gun in the heat of the moment?

I know here you have to apply to get a gun licence, stating your reasons, and if approved you can buy a gun. My brother in law wanted a gun to protect his shop from increasingly more and more scary folks who were coming in and sometimes threatening him and his staff. His application was knocked back. I think they are very strict.

and yet



these children were failed by the adults in authority


does anyone dispute that a gun in the hands of someone like this is capable of way
more lethal force in a short amount of time versus the knife, the axe, the bat as has been mentioned here?