Graycap23 said:

Oh! So it's ONLY WHILE THEY'RE PLAYING that that player is "better"...but when they're no longer playing, that said player LOSES his "better" -

MuthaFunka said:

Ever drove a Ferrari that is out of tune?

Graycap23 said:

Wait!...who you referring to as a Ferrari? BJ MUTHAFUCKIN' ARMSTRONG? LOL!

MuthaFunka said:

Until Lebron actually takes it to the level of Jordan..then yes it is "IF".

MuthaFunka said:

Ok you can phrase it that way....now does Kobe make the game "easier" for his teamates like Jordan did?







.
[Edited 5/28/09 14:56pm]

One of Kobe's problems not his playing but his personality, and is illustrated by the fact that he couldn't work it out with Shaq. If they'd kept it together who knows what they could have done? I don't think winning 6 is out of the question.

Magic & Kareem didn't seem to really like each other either personally, but played together selflessly and complemented each other. They played as if they were the best of friends. It may be cliche to say "they made their teammates better" but the fact is they do have to play well as a team in order to win. It's like a great band vs a group of session players. A band is more than individual greatness, and so is a team. The Lakers were like an all star team at one point with Malone & Payton and still didn't win.

Jordan probably has as big an ego as anyone, but somehow he managed to keep the team together & even reign in a personality like Rodman, use the smaller players when necessary and use their strengths (ie your Steve Kerrs, hell, even Rodman for that matter was kind of a role player )

Maybe Shaq is equally to blame, but I doubt Kobe is innocent there. They could have dominated, but I believe they were too selfish & egotistical.

It takes a team, even for the greatest.

Sowhat said:

Well, you didn't say that!

Sowhat said:

No, mainly because Kobe doesn't have a Pippen. But Kobe is one of the hardest players to play with because of his abilities to do just about everything for his team. Also, it's hard as hell to be - and accept - a role player in the triangle.
[Edited 5/28/09 18:59pm]

NDRU said:

Yep, both Shaq and Kobe are to blame, along with Phil and Buss. Too many huge egos and not enough limelight to go around.

MuthaFunka said:

Yes, Phil! Good point.

MuthaFunka said:

Kobe is what I like to call "Jordan Light", he's studied all things Jordan and for the most part he can do a good majority of the things that MJ could do, but not all. MJ was better on D, A better finisher at the basket, and was more of a leader for his team. Kobe's the closest to MJ in today's league though, he just doesn't make it look as easy as MJ did

Abdul said:

On MJ's D: MJ, for a large part of his career, got to guard 6'3 SGs while HE was the prototype to what we now see at SG, so his D was a bit overstated, especially when Pip got the harder assignments to guard the team's best perimeter player.

MuthaFunka said:

Ohh lawrd.....

Graycap23 said:

Prove me wrong. The starting SGs from 1980-90 were all about 6'1-6'4.

MuthaFunka said:

What does that have 2 do with playing your opponent and playing good "D"?
Reggie Miller 6'7
Danny Ainge 6'5
Craig Eloh 6'6
Clyde Drexler 6'7
Trent Tucker 6'6
Shannon Anderson 6'6
Nate Mcmillen 6'5
Dale Ellis 6'7
Allan Houston 6'7
Ray Allen 6'5
Mario Elie 6'5
Sam Mack 6'7
George Gervin 6'7
Willie Anderson 6'7
Todd Day 6'6
Rick Fox 6'7.....just 2 name a few Jordon played D on.

Graycap23 said:

Good, now here's my list. These are some the starting SGs from 1980-1990 in the NBA (Note - I used only the bigger known players, there were a few more unknown SGs that made the list:

Andrew Toney - 6'3
Byron Scott - 6'3
Ricky Pierce - 6'4
Sidney Moncrief - 6'3
Johnny Davis - 6'2
Joe Dumars - 6'3
Hersey Hawkins - 6'3
Jeff Malone - 6'4
Vernon Maxwell - 6'4
Vinny Del Negro - 6'4
Jeff Hornacek - 6'3
Rory Sparrow - 6'2
Eddie Johnson - 6'2
Wes Matthews - 6'1
Randy Smith - 6'3
James Silas - 6'1
Mike Dunleavy - 6'3
David Thompson - 6'4
Darrell Griffith - 6'4
Norm Nixon - 6'2
World B. Free - 6'2
Phil Smith - 6'4
Vinnie Johnson - 6'2
Danny Ainge - 6'4
Otis Birdsong - 6'3
Darrell Walker - 6'4
Lionel Hollins - 6'3
Jay Humphries - 6'3
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf - 6'1

As for your list:

Reggie Miller 6'7
Danny Ainge 6'5
Craig Eloh 6'6
Clyde Drexler 6'7
Trent Tucker 6'6
Shannon Anderson 6'6
Nate Mcmillen 6'5
Dale Ellis 6'7
Allan Houston 6'7
Ray Allen 6'5
Mario Elie 6'5
Sam Mack 6'7
George Gervin 6'7
Willie Anderson 6'7
Todd Day 6'6

Those in bold - not athletic, especially not as athletic as MJ, that's why he was the prototype - He set the tone for the Kobies, Brons, Tmacs, and Wades.

Plus, Scottie always took on the best perimeter player because he was a better defender than MJ.

I will ask u again, what does that have 2 do with playing good defense? U play who is front of u, regardless of size. I don't get your point. It is much more difficult 4 a big guy 2 guard a smaller player. U are PROVING my point 4 me. Thanks.

Graycap23 said:

Well, don't you think it's a TAD BIT EASIER playing D on 6'3, unathletic SGs than it is on 6'6 uber-athletic swingmen? In other words, your D is gonna LOOK HELLUVA BETTER playing against the likes of Jeff Hornacek, Vinny Del Negro, and Danny Ainge .

MuthaFunka said:

Nonsense. These are PROFESSIONAL players.

Graycap23 said:

Oh. So Ehlo's skillset is equal to Drexler's? Got it. Dawg, again, I ain't the one to try and run that side-shit on - YOU KNOW BETTA!

MuthaFunka said:

When u show me where I made those comparisons we'll talk.

Graycap23 said:

And when you show me what "professional" players have ANYTHING to do with how different the skill level, talent, and athleticism is from player to player, THEN we'll SERIOUSLY talk.

MuthaFunka said:

The same breakdown of player skills from Jordan's day can be made of todays players. Jordan was a much better defender than Kobe EVER will be. U just can't deal with the reality of that comment. It's all good though.

Graycap23 said:

Plus if you want to compare the game today to Jordan's day....it was much more of a team game back then so your defense had to be better. It is much more one-on-one in today's game plus you can play a modified zone now which can hide all kinds of defensive liabilities.

Graycap23 said:

Bullshit. There's not fuckin' way ANYONE can say the SGs in the mid-80s/mid-90s are the same as the late-90s- Current. No. Fucking. Way. The players are bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled and more athletic. Period.

MuthaFunka said:

lol.....it is all relative. Kobe and Lebron are bigger as well. Don't u get it?

Graycap23 said:

Exactly my point! MJ didn't have to deal with Bron and Kobe early on in his career, he got unathletic 6'3 Dumars and 6'4 Ainge while Kobe and Bron get KOBE AND BRON, and TMac, and Wade, and Pierce, and Gerald Wallace, and Josh Howard, and Melo, and Maggette, and Stephen Jackson, and Tayshaun Prince, and Andrei Kirilenko, and Danny Granger, and Rudy Gay, and Kevin Durant, and Andre Iguoldola, and Brandon Roy, and Manu...Dude, it's not even CLOSE!

MuthaFunka said:

Lol.....those players relative 2 the league are no better than the so called short players u listed in an earlier post.

Bottom line. Jordan is a better player.....in every way.

MuthaFunka said:

Man Allen Iverson broke Jordan's ankles a few times in Jordan's prime.
Jordan was a good defensive player but trust me there were a few
players he had trouble covering and i wouldn't say he's better than
Kobe by a mile defensively.

MuthaFunka said:

Damn i forgot about those two clowns. Add stacey king to that list.