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Thread started 05/28/09 5:54pm

Graycap23

Jordan-Kobe-Lebron: Air standards seem out of reach

LeBron James & Kobe BryantHarry How/Getty ImagesNo matter how well LeBron and Kobe play as individuals, reaching the MJ standard proves difficult.

The next time you see one of those innovative Kobe-LeBron puppet commercials, savor it, because it may be the only matchup we get this season between the game's two biggest and best stars.

With LeBron's Cavaliers on the brink of summer vacation and Kobe's Lakers in a dogfight with the Denver Nuggets, who knows if we'll get to see the real deals try to one-up each other with the same passion as their marionettes?

You can't blame Nike for pushing the potential dream matchup, and the roommate concept was a nice touch.

It was also right on the money. Figuratively speaking.

LeBron and Kobe are indeed roommates, living under the same roof built by Michael Jordan. Let's call it a mobile home -- one that's, of course, crazy mad plush -- because everywhere they go, the ceiling of their Jordan-constructed digs travels with them.

Everything they do on the basketball court is compared to Jordan. Obviously, that's a compliment to their great skills, but it's also a near-impossible standard that often clouds the judgment of their critics.

I mentioned to LeBron a few weeks ago that he's always being compared to Jordan. His response was a healthy one that I'm sure allows him to keep his sanity.

"Man, there'll never be another Michael Jordan," he said. "You'll drive yourself crazy trying to be the next Michael Jordan."

I'm not saying it's wrong to compare these guys to Jordan, mind you. In every field of endeavor, we compare today's best to the best ever, so this is quite natural.

My point is just that Jordan changed the standard by which NBA superstars are measured, and that can often diminish the achievements of the great ones who follow him.

[+] EnlargeMichael Jordan
Jonathan Daniel /AllsportKobe and LeBron will have a hard time matching MJ's six rings.

For instance, with Jordan winning six titles without a dominant big man and with just one perennial All-Star teammate (Scottie Pippen) and with such nondescript guys as Stacey King, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Scott Burrell, Luc Longley, Jason Caffey and Scott Williams playing key roles, a title is not just a title anymore.

It's no longer enough for a truly, truly great player to win just a title; he must win multiple titles. Then, even if he wins multiple titles, we analyze who he won them with and how good his teammates were.

That's why people seem to have forgotten that Kobe already has won three championships. We always belittle Kobe's three rings by saying, "But he had Shaq."

Yeah, and?

It's like Kobe has to win a championship without Shaq to validate himself.

He can thank Jordan for that.

And if the Cavs fail to defy history by rallying from their 3-1 deficit in the East finals versus Orlando, LeBron will take hits in some quarters for not being Jordanesque enough.

Never mind that he's scored more points in the first four games of a conference finals series than anyone else (including Jordan); LeBron is averaging 42 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists on 50 percent shooting. Or that he hasn't had one teammate score 20 or more points in this series, a sad reality that hasn't happened in a conference final since MJ's Bulls lost to Detroit in 1989. Or that he has just one other starter hitting at least 44 percent of his shots. Or that the Cavs are the only team left standing that doesn't have at least two legitimate stars. Or that he doesn't have anything close to a Pippen or a frontline stopper like Dennis Rodman.

But such is life After Mike.

The legends we lift up and adore from the B.M. (Before Mike) days weren't held to nearly as high a standard.

First of all, before Mike, perimeter players weren't measured by their championships, because no matter how good you were, you needed a big man to win big.

Oscar Robertson, whose triple-double play we laud (and rightly so), won only one title, and that was as a 32-year-old, 11-year veteran playing with a young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yet Robertson, who averaged 19 points and 8 assists as a champion rather than the 30-12-11 we praise him for, is still viewed as possibly the best guard ever not named Jordan.

The Logo, Jerry West, played 10 seasons with a healthy Elgin Baylor and four with a healthy Wilt Chamberlain and won just one ring. He lost seven times in the NBA Finals before winning his lone championship (and eight times overall) yet he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch."

I hesitate to write this next line because it feels sacrilegious, but it's true: If West were being held to the same standard as Kobe and LeBron, he'd be known as "Mr. Clutching His Throat."

Larry Bird won three rings, but none without Top 50 All-Time teammates Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, not to mention the scores of other solid Celtics he played with over the years, including Hall of Famers Bill Walton and Tiny Archibald.

And though Magic Johnson's five rings all came with Kareem, I've never heard him questioned because he never won one without the game's all-time leading scorer. Of course, Magic also had guys like James Worthy, Byron Scott, Jamaal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and Michael Cooper to finish his no-look dimes.

See, that's how good Jordan was. Before him, conventional wisdom was that you couldn't lead the league in scoring and lead a dynasty, that you couldn't lack a dominant big man and build a dynasty.

Can Kobe and LeBron ever reach MJ's rarified air?

We'll see. But if not, they're still in some pretty lofty company.

Chris Broussard is a senior writer at ESPN The Magazine.
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Reply #1 posted 05/28/09 5:58pm

Mars23

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That sums it up.

Kobe and LeBron are great, but not "Jordan Great".
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Reply #2 posted 05/28/09 6:19pm

Sowhat

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Mars23 said:

That sums it up.

Kobe and LeBron are great, but not "Jordan Great".


nod !!!
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Reply #3 posted 05/28/09 6:31pm

NDRU

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Could one significant difference be that they didn't play in college? I think Jordan certainly looks at his time in college as important
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Reply #4 posted 05/28/09 7:16pm

MuthaFunka

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Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.

As for Bron - Dude is a freak of nature. No way a 6'8ish/275lbs.ish dude should be that fast, quick, and athletic - especially his hoppers. Once he gets "clutch" and sustains his shooting touch, especially from outside, he's gonna be the beast of all time.
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Reply #5 posted 05/28/09 7:35pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.
As for Bron - Dude is a freak of nature. No way a 6'8ish/275lbs.ish dude should be that fast, quick, and athletic - especially his hoppers. Once he gets "clutch" and sustains his shooting touch, especially from outside, he's gonna be the beast of all time.


Thanks 4 the laugh. Jordan by a mile especially on defense.

Before it is all over though, Lebron may be the best individual player of all time if Danny Ferry would just get the man some real help.
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Reply #6 posted 05/28/09 7:36pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:

Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.
As for Bron - Dude is a freak of nature. No way a 6'8ish/275lbs.ish dude should be that fast, quick, and athletic - especially his hoppers. Once he gets "clutch" and sustains his shooting touch, especially from outside, he's gonna be the beast of all time.


Thanks 4 the laugh. Jordan by a mile especially on defense.

Before it is all over though, Lebron may be the best individual player of all time if Danny Ferry would just get the man some real help.


lol Yeah, we ALL KNOW where YOU stand when your God's place in the NBA lore is questioned, so no shock there. clapping
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Reply #7 posted 05/28/09 7:37pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:



Thanks 4 the laugh. Jordan by a mile especially on defense.

Before it is all over though, Lebron may be the best individual player of all time if Danny Ferry would just get the man some real help.


lol Yeah, we ALL KNOW where YOU stand when your God's place in the NBA lore is questioned, so no shock there. clapping

Do u have a mirror handy?
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Reply #8 posted 05/28/09 7:38pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:



lol Yeah, we ALL KNOW where YOU stand when your God's place in the NBA lore is questioned, so no shock there. clapping

Do u have a mirror handy?


Why, should it be a Jordan Jumpman mirror? lol
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Reply #9 posted 05/28/09 7:45pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Do u have a mirror handy?


Why, should it be a Jordan Jumpman mirror? lol

A Kobenet mirror will do.
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Reply #10 posted 05/28/09 7:55pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:



Why, should it be a Jordan Jumpman mirror? lol

A Kobenet mirror will do.

lol Is that like the Carolina MJ mirror?
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Reply #11 posted 05/28/09 8:06pm

Sowhat

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MuthaFunka said:

Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.


Jordan could do all of this at least as well as Kobe if not better but Jordan made everyone around him a better player....can you honestly say that about Kobe?
"Always blessings, never losses......"

Ya te dije....no manches guey!!!!!

mad I'm a guy!!!!

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Reply #12 posted 05/28/09 8:11pm

Sowhat

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MuthaFunka said:

.....As for Bron - Dude is a freak of nature. No way a 6'8ish/275lbs.ish dude should be that fast, quick, and athletic - especially his hoppers. Once he gets "clutch" and sustains his shooting touch, especially from outside, he's gonna be the beast of all time.


Big ifs....the potential might be there, but potential and actual execution are two different things.

Don't get me wrong....I like Bron and want Cleveland to win it all this year, but I have yet to see either Kobe or Bron reach Jordan's level yet. And until I actually see it, all the potential in the world doesn't do it for me.
"Always blessings, never losses......"

Ya te dije....no manches guey!!!!!

mad I'm a guy!!!!

"....i can open my-eyes "underwater"..there4 i will NOT drown...." - mzkqueen03 eek lol
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Reply #13 posted 05/28/09 8:12pm

Graycap23

Sowhat said:

MuthaFunka said:

Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.


Jordan could do all of this at least as well as Kobe if not better but Jordan made everyone around him a better player....can you honestly say that about Kobe?

I'll take this one.....No, u can't say that about Kobe.
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Reply #14 posted 05/28/09 8:45pm

MuthaFunka

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Sowhat said:

MuthaFunka said:

Either way, Kobe is the most skilled player in the history of the game. He can score from anywhere, has handles, is a playmaker, clutch shooter, can play D. He eeks out MJ in this claim solely due to his 3pt range.


Jordan could do all of this at least as well as Kobe if not better but Jordan made everyone around him a better player....can you honestly say that about Kobe?


Kobe's 3 range is better than MJ's. Hands down. And no player makes another player better - biggest sham cliche' ever in sports. It's on THAT PLAYER HIMSELF to make himself better. All great players do is make the game EASIER for their teammates.
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Reply #15 posted 05/28/09 8:46pm

MuthaFunka

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Sowhat said:

MuthaFunka said:

.....As for Bron - Dude is a freak of nature. No way a 6'8ish/275lbs.ish dude should be that fast, quick, and athletic - especially his hoppers. Once he gets "clutch" and sustains his shooting touch, especially from outside, he's gonna be the beast of all time.


Big ifs....the potential might be there, but potential and actual execution are two different things.

Don't get me wrong....I like Bron and want Cleveland to win it all this year, but I have yet to see either Kobe or Bron reach Jordan's level yet. And until I actually see it, all the potential in the world doesn't do it for me.

I wouldn't call it big ifs because his game has vastly improved since he came into the league, ESPECIALLY his D.
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Reply #16 posted 05/28/09 8:49pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Sowhat said:



Jordan could do all of this at least as well as Kobe if not better but Jordan made everyone around him a better player....can you honestly say that about Kobe?


Kobe's 3 range is better than MJ's. Hands down. And no player makes another player better - biggest sham cliche' ever in sports. It's on THAT PLAYER HIMSELF to make himself better. All great players do is make the game EASIER for their teammates.

Here we go.....semantics.
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Reply #17 posted 05/28/09 8:51pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:



Kobe's 3 range is better than MJ's. Hands down. And no player makes another player better - biggest sham cliche' ever in sports. It's on THAT PLAYER HIMSELF to make himself better. All great players do is make the game EASIER for their teammates.

Here we go.....semantics.

Call it whaT you want, but Jordan didn't make Corzine or brad Sellers better, did he? LMAO!
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Reply #18 posted 05/28/09 8:52pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Here we go.....semantics.

Call it whaT you want, but Jordan didn't make Corzine or brad Sellers better, did he? LMAO!

Ask Paxson, Cartwright, Bj,.... and the other donuts.
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Reply #19 posted 05/28/09 8:53pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


Call it whaT you want, but Jordan didn't make Corzine or brad Sellers better, did he? LMAO!

Ask Paxson, Cartwright, Bj,.... and the other donuts.


But why didn't he make Brad and Corzine better if he made those other guys better? lol
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Reply #20 posted 05/28/09 8:58pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Ask Paxson, Cartwright, Bj,.... and the other donuts.


But why didn't he make Brad and Corzine better if he made those other guys better? lol

U can't make ZERO's better....no matter how hard u try.
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Reply #21 posted 05/28/09 8:59pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:



But why didn't he make Brad and Corzine better if he made those other guys better? lol

U can't make ZERO's better....no matter how hard u try.

spit So you're saying they have to ALREADY HAVE TALENT in order for the mythical "I can make you better" to take place, eh? thumbs up!
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Reply #22 posted 05/28/09 9:00pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


U can't make ZERO's better....no matter how hard u try.

spit So you're saying they have to ALREADY HAVE TALENT in order for the mythical "I can make you better" to take place, eh? thumbs up!

Talent and the NBA pretty much go together.....especially 4 good teams.
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Reply #23 posted 05/28/09 9:01pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


spit So you're saying they have to ALREADY HAVE TALENT in order for the mythical "I can make you better" to take place, eh? thumbs up!

Talent and the NBA pretty much go together.....especially 4 good teams.

Exactly, so this myth that great players make their teammates better is just that. The players have to be good themselves.
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Reply #24 posted 05/28/09 9:06pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


Talent and the NBA pretty much go together.....especially 4 good teams.

Exactly, so this myth that great players make their teammates better is just that. The players have to be good themselves.

U can't be serious.
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Reply #25 posted 05/28/09 9:07pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


Exactly, so this myth that great players make their teammates better is just that. The players have to be good themselves.

U can't be serious.

You can't be serious about thinking that ridiculous shit is true.
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Reply #26 posted 05/28/09 9:09pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


U can't be serious.

You can't be serious about thinking that ridiculous shit is true.

How many titles did Jordan win before Pippen hit his stride?
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Reply #27 posted 05/28/09 9:10pm

MuthaFunka

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MuthaFunka said:

Graycap23 said:


U can't be serious.

You can't be serious about thinking that ridiculous shit is true.

A great example is, how come BJ wasn't shit after he left? If MJ "made him a better player," then shouldn't he have REMAINED BETTER after he left for G'State and Charlotte? lol
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Reply #28 posted 05/28/09 9:11pm

Graycap23

MuthaFunka said:

MuthaFunka said:


You can't be serious about thinking that ridiculous shit is true.

A great example is, how come BJ wasn't shit after he left? If MJ "made him a better player," then shouldn't he have REMAINED BETTER after he left for G'State and Charlotte? lol

Seems u have missed the POINT completely. They have 2 be playing together 2 win. Get it.
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Reply #29 posted 05/28/09 9:11pm

MuthaFunka

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Graycap23 said:

MuthaFunka said:


You can't be serious about thinking that ridiculous shit is true.

How many titles did Jordan win before Pippen hit his stride?


So MJ made Pippen better? Explain. Because Pip got better his damn self and he remained "better" when MJ retired and when MJ came back, and when Pip left for Houston and Portland.
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