ok, i have been dealing with this problem now for almost a year and im almost out of answers, any helpful advice would be great...


i have a standard poodle. he will be a year old in about 2 weeks. he was rescued from an environment that a vet determined was not healthy for the young pups, i recieved him when he was 10 weeks old. apparently there was a litter of poodles living with several great danes and the vet determined that they were not getting enough food - at least thats what i was told.

in the dogs defense, i had him 3 short days before i fell and hurt my foot at the grocery store. even though potty training was still an issue we dealt with everyday, im just saying i was not as quick to catch him since i was on crutches, but we did the best we could and he was still taken outside around the clock for the first several weeks, that then bled into the first several months, infact, he only stopped going out in the middle of the night about 3 months ago.

the dog was diagnosed with separation anxiety at about 5 months old. my children can come and go as they please but when i walk out the door the pup freaks out - he starts spinning circles, frothing at the mouth, chirping like a bird, peeing out of fright, tearing up my house, and anxiety pooping. when i put him in the cage it only makes the situation that much worse and the is nonstop freaking out until we get back home to find him soaked from his front toes all the way down his chest, all over his stomach, and to his back feet with drool. he also will anxiety poop in the cage and walk through it with no reguards, tracking it all through the cage and himself. a few times around that event and i quickly realized that anytime i would put him in the kennel he would need a bath right afterwards. i decided to put both dogs, even though my other one doesnt need to be put up when i leave, they both were put into the bathroom when we left.

several things happened when i did that. first, the poodle tears up the bathroom, eats toilet paper and chews anything he can. he was trying to eat his way out of the door, i will now have to replace the door and the wood molding around the door frame. but interestingly enough, he would poop in the bathtub when left in the bathroom - easy enough to clean with bleach and soap, but still a nasty situation.

finally i just thought, well fine i will take him with me when i run out to the store or whereever. thought that would help. when i did that, he was in my car for no longer than 5 minutes and he had shit and then ran all through it to track it all through the car - it was EVERYWHERE!! obviously that is not going to be something we can do again.

i eventually called the animal control here in town looking for advice. they sent me to a trainer for help. the trainer said that the dog has 'claimed' me as his own (great, i finally have a man, and its a dog) and that i needed to 'break up' with him. he had to understand that the relationship that he thinks he has with me is not the case and that he is to be a different pet if he wants my attention. alright, so, i changed everything i do. he can no longer sit with me or get my attention throughout the day - not something i like doing, but i am trying to save the lil guys life because i dont know ANYONE that would put up with this kind of dog!

alright, fine, so now i have him to where he is not sitting under me all day. he seems to be better as far as that goes and doesnt follow me around to every room i walk into. but now, hes shitting in my hallway every night - im sure its because hes pissed off that i am not paying attention to him any more



any great hints or suggestions on how to tame this crazy dog????? i have never dealt with anxiety from a dog so i dont know what i should be doing, i feel like i have tried a lot of things, but i am willing to continue if this is something i can eventually get him out of. everyone i know is telling me to get rid of him, i just want to try to make him better...

Sorry to hear that you are going through this.
Some will disagree with me when I say this but you should have crate trained the dog as soon as you brought it to your home. Some dogs from the pound or shelter do not respond as quickly to crate training because they are kept in cages at the shelter.
Crating them keeps them from getting into hazardous materials and destroying your home.
Our dog has been crate trained all of his life and he goes in there on his own. It is "his" space, his den.
He was neutered a few weeks ago. He was upset and stressed once the anesthesia wore off. He ran around the house upset and uncomfortable trying to find a comfortable place to rest. After moving from room to room, he went into his crate and fell asleep. I do not know what we would have done without it, it kept him safe and secure while he healed.
All I say at night when it is his bed time is "night-night" and he runs into his crate for bed.
We have also done a few things since we brought him home to show him he is not boss of the house. We put his food in his bowl and make him wait until we say "ok" to eat it. I put my hands in his food as he eats it, I make like I am eating out of his bowl and I eat first in front of him so he sees that he is not pack leader.
We do not allow him into our bed, that is ours, not his.
Sounds like your pup feels like it has to protect you and be pack leader. When you leave, he cannot protect you and cannot do what a pack leader does.
Then the anxiety comes in.

I wish I had more info to help. I know there are a few ppl here that have dogs and probably have more knowledge on the subject than me.

One more thing about the crate training, most healthy, normal dogs do not go to the bathroom where they sleep, so they usually will not go in there crate.

Also...all dogs need to be exercised daily, if not they have pent up anxiety and frustration.

Good luck!

Val already brought up some great points. i would stress what she said about anxiety being reduced by exercise. a young standard poodle probably needs about 3 hours of walking every day. out of that, you can probably substitute 1 hour of play in the yard if you'd like, but walking and the associated environmental stimulation are crucial. if you don't walk him this much now, you can work up to it over two or three weeks. and if you can't walk him that much, ask a neighbor to take him, which would also help with the separation issues - he's out doing something fun without you, not being left behind.

also, i'm not sure that the trainer meant for you to completely ignore him; that seems harsh to a dog. just show affection on your terms, not his.

best of luck, and hats off to you - many would have already given up.

oops edit
[Edited 4/21/09 13:23pm]

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Good points

positive reinforcements help, when he is being good tell him, praise him, reward him.
I agree, attention should be on your terms.

Exercise is very important. Different breeds require different types of exercise and discipline.

With our dog, he need mental and physical stimulation.

the exercise thing was a problem at first, but i think we have worked it out to the liking of both the dogs and the people in the house as well. we live just down the street from the dog park, the boys (dogs) love going there to run!! they will run their lil hearts out for an hour or more while the kids and i toss the ball or watch them with their lil puppy friends

then, we have a park in the backyard where we live. the boys have been trained not to run off now and we can let them back there with us to run and play while the kids and i are outside. if left alone they will run away, but when we are out there they stay right with us and interact with us while they play.

the boys also get lots of go fetch the ball time here at the house that they both enjoy very much.

at the end of any of these rounds of fun, they are both so exhausted all they can do is lay out and beg for breath lol, and they usually sleep for a few hours after that... generally they seem to be living happy, healthy dog lives with tons of attention from my kids and i. we are all commited to helping the baby of the family work through his issues, we are just having some trouble getting through to him.

as far as crate training, i totally agree that is the best thing to do for your pup and it is the way i have trained every dog that i have ever had. however, with the issues with this one, the vet thought maybe we should avoid the crate, which i thought was strange, but he said if its only making the pup more nervous, not to do that.... i will tell you one thing, training without a crate is a very different training job

thanks for the ideas and support keep 'em coming, this baby is keeping me on my toes!!!!

Crate train - always
Tons of exercize and check his food quality/quanity
Try some rescue remedy drops in his water
Try Massage/touch thearpy
Mental exercize is as important as physical
They need rules and limitations set as children do

Standards are smart and high energy - make sure he is burning both candles there

Mach said:

Oh yes...rescue remedy

Helped Dylan recuperate from his surgery. Good stuff.

Toys that make them think and work out.

shanti0608 said:

It helps to calm my VERY physically and mentally active westie without that druged effect I just use it a few times a week and can see a difference from weeks I do not use it or run out

Mach said:

I use it when we have company staying with us and when we have had a few days of rain and he does not get out for enough exercise. It does help.

We have (had, Dylan destroyed it out of frustration after his surgery ) a toy that we only gave him for hide and seek in the house.
We make him "sit" and "stay", hid the toy in the house and he finds it. He LOVES that game, will play for hours.
I felt bad and let him have it after his surgery, he took out his pain and frustration out on it. Better that than a shoes or piece of furniture.

Mental stimulation is important.

[Edited 4/21/09 14:00pm]

shanti0608 said:

It is

a Standard could carry a backpack as well - a job

some breeds thrive on having a "job" as well

Food quality and quanity is a huge thing to look at as well

Good - really good quality food is worth every cent

poor food- nasty ingredients and all that stuff can make a dog act and feel yucky too

Mach said:

Back packs
Dylan carries his own water to the park.

acupressure can help with a high stressed dog as well

oh - I already mentioned massage

you can spray wolf urine where the dog is crapping will scare the shit outta him - well NOT really




anyway wolf urine stinks - only do this for outside NO crap zones

Mach said:

see if you can find a licensed T-Touch professional in your area, or buy the book and learn the techniques.

The crate known as the bathroom worked great, I think he'll take right to being confined in an even smaller space. If I was claustrophobic and/or had separation anxiety, I would feel so safe being shut in a cell all by myself. *irony*


I'm dead sure to have different ways of looking at this than North American people, if you want to hear my views you can PM me.

Teacher said:

Hey Jen, i am sure NP would love any suggestions that you have, just as everyone else here would like to see and contribute. I am pretty sure that no one will put your ideas down and criticize you in the way you do with other though

Teacher said:

You , might want to add the UK to your list along with North America, they do it here too.
I am also doing a little research online about other countries that recommend crate training.
Interesting.

My builder's dog had the same problem last year. I haven't kept in touch to find out whether they managed to sort out the problem but we made some progress while he was here.

I think in his case part of the problem was lack of exercise and stimulation. He got so over-excited whenever he got any attention that he couldn't control himself. In his case we worked on giving him play-time and starting to teach him control words, which he hadn't been able to learn until that point (I'm not sure whether they had tried to teach him previously or not) but we taught him "stay" and fetch".

The advice I found on websites was to ignore him on entering a room and to enter and leave the room continuously until it was boring to him. I have to say it had started to work by the time the builder had finished although the first time anyone entered a room he would still be too over-excited. The idea is to enter and leave without making any fuss, which is not always an easy thing to do as you want to pet your dog as soon as you see him and, although it sounds an easy thing to do, I found it really difficult to just walk out of the room without saying "bye". He was a lovely creature and I hope the family managed to continue working with him.

I've just found one of the websites that we used: http://www.wagntrain.com/...ionAnx.htm

Don't give up - I really hope things will get better soon for you and your dog.
x

rasplicious said:

Very good advice. We had to do that especially when Phil goes away for a few days. When he comes back Dylan goes crazy. He does not get any attention or acknowledgment until he calms down and has to sit first.
It is harder to do that when new ppl come to visit or friends that come to see him, they tend to wind him up as soon as they come through the door.
I was trained long ago by my mom not to say goodbye to them and not to have this big long conversation about where we are going and when we will be back, just makes them anxious.

shanti0608 said:

Yes, it's totally the right thing to do, although I still find myself saying it under my breath, or saying a quick "I won't be long" as I did with little Tom last week ... I just find it difficult to leave anyone without saying goodbye

rasplicious said:

It is hard. I catch Phil getting excited and saying "HEY BUDDY" to him first thing in the morning before he lets him outside.
It is his first dog....bless. He is good cop and I am bad cop.

shanti0608 said:

Hehehe ... I'm also a mad dog-woman who talks all the way down the street when I'm walking. Really, all I need is a shopping trolley, a few bags and a dog on a string

rasplicious said:

I catch myself talking to Dylan a lot on our walks.

ok guys, thank you so much, you all have had some really good ideas and ways of looking at things as always - i love this place because you get so many different perspectives on situations that maybe you havent thought of already....


i have some good news to share from today....

my girlfriend came over today on a short visit from out of town. we were going to lunch and i left both boys out (this would be an extended time since we were gone almost 2 hours). she is one that thinks i should totally give up on him and get rid of him right away. she asked me when i left them what i was doing and how i thought that was a good idea... i said, well, im gonna see what he does, i have a good feeling... turns out, he didnt do ANYTHING! the house looked exactly the same as it did when i left he made me so proud

she said, well, thats great, but you still have to get rid of him... i let the boys out back, instead of running away like they used to, they stayed right in my sight playing and running around, when they got to far away i called them back and they came closer. when i called them inside after they had run for awhile and went potty - they came right in like good boys.... i didnt say anything, but inside i was SO proud of him!! if i can get him turned around and change the behavior, he wont have to leave me ever, he will be the boy that i want/need him to be and this whole entire problem will be over


other than that, a few other things i hadnt mentioned from before as i was reading over what i posted.... the dog at about 5 months old, i had my friend over with her two kids (who are both teenagers) i made a nice dinner and we were going to watch a movie together. AS SOON as i sat down to eat with them, the dog walked over and peed on my foot!!! didnt lift his leg, because he was so young, but it was a definate pee on my foot!! the trainer said that was because he was 'marking' me .... cool huh? try horrifying!!

also, when people come over, he puts his paws up on my thigh if im sitting (i especially noticed this after surgery, wonder if he was protecting me?) and then stretches out over my body, like covering me from anyone's view... apparently thats another way to say "shes mine, back off" at least in dog language trainer says that the next thing is going to be nipping or growling, followed by biting - and nobody wants to see that

anyway, i guess i didnt tell all the issues, its a lot more than potty training with him, actually i think thats the second issue, the first being that he is so nervous about me leaving or being away from him, which is why i dont want to give up on him!!! hes got a great heart, and i really think that once he grows out of being a puppy a little bit, im having him fixed in about a week (havent been up and driving a lot in the last year and for this surgery he will be about an hour away) these things should really help change him for the best. plus the kids will be here all summer long and that will help as well... im really hoping he will get it together, i do love him and i think deep down he is a good dog - just has some serious issues we need to work out... but,


yay for the work today on his part!!!!

That's excellent news! It shows that even though you think the work you've done before hasn't yielded any results, all of a sudden they do. It's that learning and training comes in steps instead of a constant advance, it's hard to deal with when you see no results but then you get days like this. Don't be discouraged if he does get anxious again, try to sit down now while you have the day in fresh memory and think through what you did - perhaps you did or didn't do some things you usually do when you leave them? Then you should keep doing (or not) it next time.
I think your trainer had a point, even if he expressed it in terms that make me break out in an allergic rash; He said you needed to "break up" with your dog, I'd have put it like this - he needs to be satisfied with being a dog ON HIS OWN, without you to approve of his mere existance. I'm also allergic to anything coming even close to the horrible concept known to dog trainers as the "Ice Age", it's where you ignore your dog COMPLETELY for weeks on end. You don't even look at the dog and NEVER touch it. The absurd reasoning for this is that if you do this enough the dog will be so thankful if you DO pay it any attention, that it'll do anything and everything you want, but all the while be extremely submissive. I want to shoot whoever invented that shit, or put them in Gitmo and see how they like the treatment. Anyways; I don't think that's what your trainer really meant, and besides I know you well enough to know what you would've punched his lights out had he suggested you do that. But some ignoring is obviously the right thing to do, cause it's showing results now - when he was playing and doing things without having to have you right there with him.
Ah, the dog language... I really don't think that it's even possible to talk to dogs in dog speak and we should take no heed to their body language towards us as being dominating or submissive, because we are NOT dogs and they know it just as well as we do. Would you say a child was trying to dominate you if it peed on your foot or stretched all over you on the couch? I don't think so, but it's trying to achieve the same thing - attention. It's up to you if you want to give the dog the attention at that given time, personally I don't believe in always ignoring the dog if the dog is the one initating the interaction. This is preached by many trainers, among them Cesar Millan He says that the dog should NEVER be allowed to take the initiative, NEVER - not for play, cuddling, training or anything else. For me the most obvious problem with this way of thinking (aka the I Have a Bigger Dick Than A Dog complex) is if the dog needs to go out - if you should always ignore the dog if it's seeking attention, how will you know? Will you then berate the dog for having done what it needed to do inside? These people probably would, and that's just all kinds of wrong.

You're doing great, Kel. Keep it up. I have many tips for true mental activity, if you want some you can PM me.

Teacher said:

thanks girl im really feeling good about the progress we've made in the past few days....as my friends love to point out, its only been a few days, but at this point, i will take ANY change that shows i am getting through to him!!! i really do care about this pup and i only want whats best for him, he has a fantastic heart and i dont want to let him down only because i cant figure out a better way to get his attention.

that being said, i wanna say that we have continued to have a fantastic day today. TWICE he came to me throughout the day to let me know he needed out - went out and did his business and then we came in for treats its a good baby poodle day around here for sure!

since he is on my mind i have been doing a lot of reflecting on MY actions and how they may or may not have effected his. a great portion of me thinks that when i had my surgery the dog knew there were things wrong with me, like both in a good way and in a bad way. heres an example.... on the day i got home from the hospital, both of my boys were right next to me all day and night. i have a picture of me laying on the couch with my foot up on a pillow and an ice pack on, with both dogs on the couch with me as well. mind you, together they weigh about 140 pounds, they are by no means little babies anymore it was sweet though, they never hurt me in any way, they were very careful of my foot - not because i told them, but i think more because they knew. anyway, in that picture after surgery, not only did both boys get on the couch with me, but both of my cats are laying on my chest too so picture it, all 5 of us on the couch together just chillin.... makes me giggle.

anyway, i think part of the pups new found attitude is because he sees that i am healing and getting stronger. i kid you not, this surgery was a TOUGH one, much worse than any other operation i have had in the past and it knocked me on my ass for a LOOOONG time. im still not back to myself and i still have to be very careful, but i am feeling a TON better than i was and i think that the dogs are responding to that and showing that they are ready to get back in the game as far as whats expected of them... hell, for all i know its just the difference of how i am treating them. either way, things are going so much better just in the past 2 days - i could actually live like this! finally i feel like we are making some incredible progress


im feelin really good... oh, i forgot to say - there were no messes in the hallway last night either. its just so exciting

thanks again guys

So happy to hear there's progress!!!!

It makes me nuts that people are so quick to suggest getting rid of a problem dog.
They'd never "get rid" of a problem child.


As a doggie parent I commend you for seeking out every possible option to help your not-so-easy boy.

thank you

we are ready for bed now, he has done all his business outdoors and is tired out ready for bed.... im praying for another good night



sleep tight and sweet dreams!

Crate traiing is NOT the way to go when you have a dog with severe separation anxiety issues. I had a Weimaraner for over 11 years. That breed is very well known for it's separation issues and mine was no exception. She would pant so hard in that thing that she would get severely dehydrated. She would be standing in a pool of drool and several times almost collapsed when she finally was let out...and we're not talking about being alone for hours, we're talking about her doing this much damage to herself in short periods of time.

Like others said, you need to provide tons of stimulation and exercise and instead of crating your dog when you are out, I recommend keeping him in a closed off area, so he can move around, with lots of things that are his to chew - because separation anxiety dogs are also anxious chewers.

My dog eventually got better with age.