mdiver said:

To what? How much blame you think the father should take for not somehow preventing an unprovoked attack?

Your on some "I wouldn't even take my child to the store" schitt

Cinnie said:

Every post of yours here has bugged me so i guess we are even.

Like i said if the kid was backing away and the GOAL was protection then the father could have gotten between them....job done.

I love the way you say "resolved"....resolving the issue was removing his son from danger, to a normal parent, he didn't remove him from danger he left his son where he was and exacted revenge.

If to you resolve=revenge then i can see your reasoning, i don't agree but i see how you work. If resolve=remove his son from danger then there were a multitude of other ways to do it.

Cinnie said:

No, to the question I asked you.If you read posts before you type it makes this whole debate thing easier.

2elijah said:

Somehow I wonder if the DS guy had kicked other people (especially children) before. I mean, how did he figured that it was OK to kick a little child? Where did the parents of DS guy went wrong with the (lack of) home training?!?

Or even worse, what if the DS guy really did kick that child because he thought that child (who is black) isn't human?!? In these harsh times where even a USA President can get called a "monkey" behind his back, I personally can not look past the possibility that the DS guy look at the child the same racist way.

2elijah said:

2elijah said:

Way to inject race I saw that before the edit.

TonyVanDam said:

you have never dealt with a DS kid have you? In reality that post speaks volumes.

mdiver said:

One of my fellow church members is a DS teenage girl. And she's very well behave AND very well home trained. She doesn't go around kicking little children.

Don't know if I'd hit him, but I'd definitely grab him and hold him down until I found out what's going on.

TonyVanDam said:

Like i said, you have never dealt with a person with DS.

TonyVanDam said:

that's a lot of ifs here. what's not in question is the fact that a disabled person ended up being punched out. i ask again - what's been learned here by the participants, especially the young people involved? will the DS kid ever be able to deal with adults in a trusting manner? will the toddler learn that violence is ok? will the mother trust her son enough to develop a modicum of self-sufficiency? no, the father didn't think these things through at the time, but we can in hindsight, but apparently refuse to. i've said it before - i can only hope that the father apologized for his actions and explains to his son that violence is not the answer.

TonyVanDam said:

Funny because I just posted the same thing that I bet he's done this before. Maybe he thinks of kids that way, like a toy or something not real. I don't care who is going "crazy" over my opinion, the point is, the father sprang into action automatically to protect a toddler, that's what "real parents" do. What's not to understand there unless you're playing blind to the situation?

This is the same thing I mentioned earlier about being in a store, and a mother with a mentally-disabled child holding very tight to her son, because she almost couldn't control him and he almost attacked a child in the store and yelled and frightened the child. It wasn't like he "intentionally" did it, but the parent heard her child scream and sprang into action to protect her and it was a few seconds later she realized the condition of the mentally-disabled young adult.

Same thing with my son's Uncle, who is autistic. Certain things would set him off. Whenever there were family get-togethers and friends were over, they acted nervous around him, because they were not aware of his condition, until it was explained, but whenever we had him out in public, someone's arm was always around his, just in case he became curious or afraid of something. So it is important to keep a close eye on a child/adult with mental disabilities when out in public. Good thing it wasn't an elderly person that he kicked either. It was an unfortunate situation, but it happened.
[Edited 4/19/09 15:23pm]

IrresistibleB1tch said:

It seems there are a whole bunch of people without DS that can not learn that lesson.

uPtoWnNY said:

Exactly, but apparently it was an automatic reaction by the parent to protect his child. People say they wouldn't do things though until you're actually in that particular situation at that moment.

mdiver said:

It's not revenge. A toddler cannot defend themselves, someone else has to. Defend themselves from what? A kick. A kick! An unprovoked kick, at that, from someone CAPABLE of knocking your toddler down. I have empathy for the father who saw that threat. I see the father's reaction as the "prevention" just as you suggested he step physically between them. It was excessive, but not ENTIRELY wrong. Would feel different if you saw a bruise on your toddler later?

i refuse to believe that there's not something to be learned here. so if you're just cruising through this thread, might as well read up on DS:

http://www.downsyndrome.com/

http://www.ds-health.com/

http://www.dailyherald.co...5359&src=1

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Don't have to agree, that's why we are all individuals with our own opinions. I don't agree with a number of folks on this issue, but that's their opinion, not mine. Like I said the father of the 4-year old will be the one looked at as "the bad guy" regardless of how some of us feel about the situation. Nothing new.
[Edited 4/19/09 15:38pm]

2elijah said:

it's hard for me to accept accusations of racism when all i'm trying to do is point out alternatives to violence and appeal for compassion toward the disabled.

mdiver said:

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Oh please, who accused you of racism? I'm sure Tony knows what I'm talking about. It's not like just because some of us defended the father of the 4-year old means all of a sudden we're on this major campaign against the disabled and have no compassion for them. We basically gave our take on it. I gave my honest opinion and not faking a thing about it, just to make others here feel good.

I already explained my experience with my son's uncle and the fact that I've taken care of his Uncle a number of times, and I love him just like any of my family members. Whether I agree with anyone here or not, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm not asking anyone to lose their minds over mine...geez.
[Edited 4/19/09 15:46pm]

2elijah said:

i appreciate your personal experience. i can't speak for the intentions of others, but i have seen no evidence of racial motivations in this discussion, so it's hard for me to understand where you're coming from. maybe you can elaborate.

I know "violence is not the answer", and I don't go around punching people, but I sympathize when I see someone capable of violent force DISPLAYING THAT FORCE towards a toddler unable to defend themselves.

In that same situation, I probably would have scooped up my toddler and yelled at the mom, at the very least. But if there was NO REASON for the DS guy to be kicking in the first place, wouldn't you as the dad be wondering what the DS guy would do next?

Cinnie said:

im sure the DS guy wont forget that shit for a loooong time

mdiver said:

I don't think this is racial either.

Cinnie said:

i don't think anybody is questioning whether the situation needed to be controlled. we differ on how that should be achieved.

IrresistibleB1tch said:

Exactly , you can't and I'm glad you understand that, but perhaps you didn't quite understand the first line of my previous post to you? Well, the answer to that question was already answered in that first line, so there's no need to elaborate.
[Edited 4/19/09 16:04pm]

Cuddles said:

I have yet to hear the "right" answer, and I keep imagining this.

"ohh hehe HI there oh I see he has that darn DS. Oh, nevermind the kick. I don't want to traumatize YOUR DS kid with even a short argument about why this could be wrong. we'll be on our way "

like, wtf org, let's get real

"what? nahh we're okay didn't even knock him over! "

I doubt anyone on this thread is condoning hitting a person with down syndrome. I don't think the man even looked into the boys face that hit his child. All he saw was a grown man coming at his son. He action was not a sign of being violent or even condoning it. He was simply protecting his child. It was a natural instinct. Now everyone is not going to react the way he did but there will be a reaction.

2elijah said:

what, that you didn't accuse me personally of racism? well, i suppose i'll let others fight their own battles then, which is fair.