GetAwayFromMe said:

Oh Karla. You gotta do what you gotta do.

CarrieMpls said:

You're right, Carrie. I haven't seen that explicitly stated here. But I -- just yesterday, in fact -- have discussed this with people who seem to imply that while it's not exactly "good etiquette" for any given woman to hit any given man, it's a downright lapse in the cosmic order of things when the opposite is true! ...Even if the violence is defensive.

I think that sort of logic degrades a man's being (because almost all creatures will, at some point, defend themselves), insults women (because it presupposes their inferiority) and even instills in some women a dangerous false sense of security (because while some men may come across self-composed and chivalrous enough not to hit a woman back, some will surprise even themselves in a chaotic moment, knocking her into oblivion).

I not saying orgers here have articulated that exact thinking, but I worry it might be flirted with in some positions here.
[Edited 2/11/09 8:52am]

Vendetta1 said:

Yeah, I guess it just comes with the territory.

GetAwayFromMe said:

[snip]Titty-Juice! Ass gets in the way when[/snip]
[Edited 2/11/09 8:55am]

Lammastide said:

People should keep their hands to themselves period. I would never suggest a woman is inferior but how is any fight a fair one when the woman is smaller?

Lammastide said:

I don't see any of that at all in what anyone's said here. To the point it makes me wonder why some have to so vocally defend a man's right to defend himself.

As for the rest, I can agree with some of it... But false sense of security? I'd take any sense of security.

You have no idea the fears that women live with every single day, simply being a woman. 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. I think about that every single day. I think about it when I walk to the bus stop when it's still dark in the morning (I don't put my iPod on until I get on the bus, better to hear what's going on around me). I think about it when I double bolt my door when I get home. I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm wrong in thinking most women have an expectation of violence at any time.

Vendetta1 said:

My mom was smaller than my dad. David was MUCH smaller than Goliath.

But, let's say a woman does hit first... perhaps thinking there was a privilege of not getting hit back, her gigantic BF retaliated (for whatever reason), and the ensuing bloodbath is entirely skewed by virtue of size alone. Seems awful. But is not the initial error that the violence commenced in the first place?

I'm just saying there is no utility in gender disparity with regard to violence. It's the stuff of outmoded paternalism. As you've said: "People should keep their hands to themselves period."

CarrieMpls said:

I could be wrong, but I think the thinking may be at least implicit. I've certainly heard it in no uncertain terms elsewhere more than once.


Because there is the assumption by some that for a man to do so would be the stuff of a "punk."

But moreso than defending a man's right to self-defense (which I think is innate whether it's defended or not), I'm agreeing it wouldn't even be an issue at all if the first hit wasn't landed.



Carrie, I could never fully understand what you must fear as a woman. I'm certainly not lost on that point. It's revolting... and I definitely don't suspect you're wrong in thinking most women have an expectation of violence at any time. That said, I don't understand why some (not you) might perpetuate the cycle of violence, assuming they can engage and enjoy some unspoken (and shoddy) protection against getting hit back by virtue of gender. I've seen that presumption with my own eyes. Not only does it work less and less, but it harms all parties involved.

Lammastide said:[quote]

CarrieMpls said:

I'm totally with you, Lammastide

I think I'll stop here.

Beneath the minutia, I believe there's agreement on the point that violence... period is wrong. That's good enough for me.

Lammastide said:

Between you and me, absolutely.

I've been hit by women several times in my life and I've never retaliated. Even though one time, I felt as if I could have killed one of them. Dead serious. Fortunately, I had the werewithal to walk away or I would have done her serious harm. In the instances that I didn't hit back, it wasn't because I thought it was wrong for me to do so, it was more because of how I knew I'd be perceived for having done it.

Unfortunately, 'keep your hands to yourself' is not something ingrained in all of us.

JustErin said:

Mirrored my point of view exactly, but more eloquently.

GetAwayFromMe said:

That's a low blow out of nowhere.

Fauxie said:

Not surprised. Some people here are just too juvenile to respect others opinions. This is what the org has come to


Smooches;)

MsMisha319 said:

What you wrote about women encouraging violence was hardly the smartest bit of orging I've ever seen though.

CarrieMpls said:

I've read the back and forth after this post, so I'm not trying to rehash whats already been said...but the issue isn't what's only been said here...I know from personal experience in a relationship...my girl slapped me right across the face...anyone within a hundred miles could see the violence in my eyes, but I refused to retaliate...so what do you think happened next? Did she walk away? Nah...she reared back an additional 4 times to get her point across...so when I grabbed her by the upper arms and moved her out of the way to leave, what do you think her next move was? Yup...she dialed 911 and told them that I had the nerve to put my hands on her...luckily for me, the cop that came to my apartment was an old friend of the family, otherwise I would've been sitting my ass in jail...

I work in the EO field in the military...and believe me when I tell you that there are many women who ABSOLUTELY believe that its ok for them to hit a man...to get up in his face and DARE him to hit her...is that an indictment of ALL women? Not even close...but the mindset does exist...
[Edited 2/11/09 16:28pm]

reneGade20 said:

who does that to someone they love?
why were you with someone that hated you so much?

ZombieKitten said:

uhh..I said relationship, not a loving, wanting to marry-type relationship.... She got 86'd very soon afterwards.....

reneGade20 said:

how long had you known her?
a "relationship" with a nutter like that would go no further than a date or 2 in my book

I'm reading all the posts here, but it's making me sick to my stomach now. Why was I even talking about violence in terms of if this or that happens and what may or may not be ok or justified, not to me personally but perhaps in the view of another? It's just all wrong whoever's doing it. I'm off to pick the bones out of something good.

ZombieKitten said:

in retrospect, too long....but if I'm not mistaken we'd been casual friends for about 6 months before we started actually "dating"...and it was a side of her that she didn't publicize until the actual incident....

reneGade20 said:

Fauxie said:

But it's truth, so like it or not. I don't care

And to correct your statement, I didn't say women in general encourage violence, I said SOME women encourage it. And I said this because I have seen it numerous times. It's not my fault if people don't want to hear it.




Smooches;)
[Edited 2/11/09 17:04pm]

MsMisha319 said:

Correct my statement? 'What you wrote about women encouraging violence' doesn't mean I said you meant all, or women in general, do so. It spoke to the ones you were talking about who you said encouraged violence.



Cooties;)

Fauxie said:

Oh Gaaaaawwwd.

Fauxie said:

Cooties


Smooches;)

Anybody that provokes another to anger - and worse - provokes while that person's still angry - encourages violence. Anger's a human emotion and everybody's tolerance fuse is different. No-one has the right to put their hand on anyone (except parent to child). I'm a woman, but I see how one-sided the system works in favor of women.
All a man has to do is hold onto a woman's hand too tight and everyone encourages the woman to leave him b4 things get worse, but if the other way around, people laugh and say the man soft.

Someone answer me this question: If it's passive for a woman to hit a man if she thinks he deserves it, then why not the other way around too?