Graycap23 said:

I get the nature vs nurture thing, but the very fact that some breeds, for whatever the reason, fatally attack humans cause they are strong enough and dangerous enough to kill, alarms me.

Why risk it with the breed at all? I hear pit bull lovers defending this breed to no end to the point that they point out even jack russells can maul a person. But the number of fatal pit bull attacks is far higher than other breeds.

So what if it's nature vs. nurture? Would you want your next door neighbor who works 8 to 10 hours a day, ignoring his pit bull, to let that crazy dog off his leash if you had children?

There's no reason in my opinion for the breed to exist can so easily fatally maul a human. And I don't by the media bias nonsense. The media is reporting the attacks--not making them up.

When are ppl going to be held accountable for their actions. It is like when a small child gets a hold of a gun and shots himself or someone else.
Who's fault?
The adults...the ones that know better.
I hope those parents are held accountable.

American Bull Terriers R among dogs with the LOWEST level of human aggression.

They R super friendly and affectionate, and great around kids.

The ONLY reason they were ever trained 2 be vicious fighting dogs, is because of their tenacity... they just don't give up on any task.

I know PLENTY of great pit bulls with great owners, and I'm the proud Daddy of my boy Nicco, who I'd take a bullet 4.

He's my little guy, and I love him.

Giovanni777 said:

I think people are really missing the point here.

These bigger, tougher dogs are looked at as status symbols to a hell of a lot of ignorant people that treat and glorify them as killers.
[Edited 1/8/09 9:23am]

Imago said:

EXACTLY!!

Pit bulls are full of muscle and no man could remove the dog were it to attack another. They are bred as fighting dogs, historically.

Now take for instance a labrador, their sole purpose was to be used in hunting, and they have a softer jaw, so to retrieve pick up the foul, without damaging the bird. As are sheep dogs used to round up herds of sheep.

Has anyone of you seen a farmer with a pit bull taking it to his animals? naah..

Imago said:

EXACTLY!!

Pit bulls are full of muscle and no man could remove the dog were it to attack another. They are bred as fighting dogs, historically.

Now take for instance a labrador, their sole purpose was to be used in hunting, and they have a softer jaw, so to retrieve pick up the foul, without damaging the bird. As are sheep dogs used to round up herds of sheep.

Has anyone of you seen a farmer with a pit bull taking it to his animals? naah..

Imago said:

EXACTLY!!

Pit bulls are full of muscle and no man could remove the dog were it to attack another. They are bred as fighting dogs, historically.

Now take for instance a labrador, their sole purpose was to be used in hunting, and they have a softer jaw, so to retrieve pick up the foul, without damaging the bird. As are sheep dogs used to round up herds of sheep.

Has anyone of you seen a farmer with a pit bull taking it to his animals? naah..

How many kids must die 4 something is done about this?

The jaw strength is equal with any dog, ie the amount of pressure is the same vs the dog's size. It's a myth that APBT or any other breed that are labeled "fighting dogs" have a higher jaw pressure, just as it's a myth that their jaws lock when they bite something. None of the breeds mentioned have been used as fighting dogs for many decades, except by fucking idiots. Breeds DO change their mentality over time.

KatSkrizzle: That's EXACTLY it, too - I wasn't going to bring it up about the mixes but it stands to reason that they're mixes in other countries and not just here in Sweden - rottweiler/APBT, AmStaff/APBT AmStaff/rottweiler etc - people don't know that American Pit Bull Terrier is an actual breed, "pitbull" goes for anything Also, I don't know if it was you or somebody else who said it, but these reports automatically become "pit bull attacks" - it's not NEARLY as good news value if a golden retriever attacks a child (and yes, it happens - a few years ago that breed was number one on the list of attacks on children here... NOT "pitbulls").

As for anything else; Jasmine, I adore you on these issues.

Teacher said:

thats not totally accurate...
it's not known wether their jaw strength is any different than that of other dogs...there's no true way to test bite capacity since dogs bite at varying degrees depending on the situation...
plus, it would be kinda hard to tell the dog to bite as hard as he could and expect him to comply for a scientific study
so any ideas on jaw strength or lack thereof is just speculation on both ends...

their jaws dont lock, thats a big myth...but it's really up to them wether they let go or not...


alot of myths surround these dogs...
but I stand by my opinion that it is a dangerous breed...should the breed be eradicated, no...should it be regulated, yes...

How many times ..... it makes me so angry!

roodboi said:

That's the thing about them not letting go, but again people yell themselves hoarse about pitbulls, when in fact this is the case with ALL terriers - right from the jack russell to the biggest. They're supposed to be stubborn. The jaw pressure IS possible to measure, insofar as a particular situation is concerned ie a setup where diff dogs get to bit the same thing like a padded sleeve. What I'm trying to get through though I guess, is that people think that because of their skull shape the pressure is harder than that of other breeds of equal size.

Teacher said:

no, it's not...
you could line up as many dogs as you like and somehow convince them all to bite the same sleeve and each one is gonna bite differently...there's no way to control how hard each will bite, let alone determine if each dog is biting as hard as they can...

roodboi said:

I believe it's possible to determine possible maximum jaw pressure by analyzing the jaws and the muscle structure/composition/whatever it's scientifically called but it would lead us too far. those status dogs + kids = NO GO, period.

Teacher said:

aawww...thanks, babe.

BlueZebra said:

roodboi said:

so that makes it sound like it's possible to measure jaw pressure but that measure is inaccurate at best?



All terriers have strong jaws. Westhighland Terriers, Jack Russell Terriers, Rat Terriers, and Stafordshire Terriers (aka pitbulls). They bite on to something and, unless they're trained to drop it, they will rip it to sheds before they let go of it. It's a part of the breed. Terriers were bred to go after and kill rodents.

roodboi said:

I owned a pit. I could open her mouth when she got in the trash. I opened her jaw to grab chicken a chicken bone out of her mouth. Did the same with my son's toys and leather shoes.

This whole thing of children being mauled by dogs will end when regular good owners stop leaving dogs unattended outside where others, namely kids tease the dogs til it makes these dogs aggressive to the point where these dogs attack because they fear children.

This happens with any dog not just pits, but pits make the headlines. I was biten by a poodle and a dalmation lunged at my son without provocation. I've had a pit that a child could step on and she wouldn't dare snap, all dogs are individuals, all dogs within any breed can have a range of personalities.

My mom had a pit that was just mean and she would growl as she ate her food as a puppy... eventually that puppy grew in aggression as she became older despite training and was put down BEFORE she could hurt anyone. Dogs don't turn instantly evil, an owner makes the decision to keep a mean dog around- any breed of dog can be mean.... including toy dogs like a chihuahuas.

I am sick to death of people saying pitbulls are vicious, they are just regular dogs capable of anything other dogs are.

Yes, these dogs are being bred by a select few sickos to fight, but so were dobermans back in the day. In time there will be a new breed to fear and hate.

Teacher said:

Dr. I. Lerh Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." (From the ADBA booklet, "Discover the American Pit Bull Terrier.)



Dr I Lehr Brisbin PhD Professor of Ecology at the Univeristy of Georgia and a scientist for the US Department of Energy Savannah River Ecology Labratory in the field of animal behavior states:

" I have conducted extensive research on the two basis issues on the two basic issues raised by the controversy surrounding the anti-pit bull legislation, to wit: Is there any credible evidence that the bite of the pit bull is either stronger or more damaging than that of various other heavy breeds of dogs, and is there any credible evidence that pit bulls are more likely to attack and/or bite in a dangerous way than any other breed of dog?"



The studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that , in proportion to their size, their jaw structure, and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any other breed of dog of comparable size and build. Further, there is no evidence for the existence of any kind of "locking mechanism" unique to the structure of the jaws and / or teeth of pit bulls."


I feel certain that he would know if we could measure their biting pressure...
even in his second statement dealing with the study of the jaw cites inferred morphology...not exactly a scientific fact...

Regardless of whether people are responsible owners you still have these stories of the dogs snapping and people claiming they were good pets and nothing like this ever happened. I only tolerate the defense of these dogs because I love some of you.

roodboi said:

voila, he did the research I mentioned and there is no proof that their bite is stronger than any other similar dog

Let's let all dogs out back and shoot 'em

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

In my post, #107 is one of the main reasons why that happens. People tease dos left unattended by owners, causing those same dogs to act out of fear.

wildgoldenhoney said:

Socialize, like exposing them to people, a lot of people. Bringing them around other dogs - a lot. If you keep a breed like a pit, rottie, or any other guard dog holed up in the house all the time, it will develop aggression.

They need to be around lots of people early on and needs to be around people well into adult hood. Tney also need a strong master and a leader that is consistent and patient in training it.

The idiot dope boys that get a pit to be cool, holed that dog up in the basement, outside on a chain, etc. That is what makes the dog aggressive. They have an aggressive switch, it is up to the owner to keep it off or turn it on.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

But Richard, you are disregarding the fact that this happens with sooo many other breeds as well! The only reason it's getting much less attention is that those dogs aren't "pitbulls". I frequent a dog forum (not right now cos I was banned for calling somebody an asshole who thinks bestiality isn't a problem) and the people who come there asking for advice on dogs that are starting to exhibit aggressive behaviour have ALL kinds of breeds - everything from teacup chihuahas to S:t Berhards. Yes, there are pit-mixes in there and rottweilers as well, but more often than not they're hunting dogs that are NOT supposed to engage the prey physically in their work. Those are the biggest groups, followed by the smaller breeds. It's rarely really large breeds, but there are ALL kinds.
We're also, a lot of us, saying over and over - dogs are animals, they don't do things without a reason. It's up to the humans to create safe surroundings for ourselves insofar as we're able and that most def includes keeping children and ALL dogs separate unless supervised. I don't let children other than Tyra pet Uzie because I know she doesn't like them, and Tyra is not allowed to be alone with her either... it's just common sense and unfortunately it's not against the law to be a dumbass.

Kat; Excellent point about socialisation, it's elementary dog owner knowledge or so one would think. I have no respect whatsoever for people who get a dog and don't know what they're doing. Socialisation is THE key to a well functioning dog - getting the dog used to all kinds of environments (residential area, park, city streets, woods, building sites, riding bus/train, train/bus station etc), different noise levels (quiet, family convo, group meeting, busy street, loud music etc), groups and crowds (people moving around everywhere in all directions for example, picnic with kids playing, people talking, eating etc), different types of people (some dogs are afraid of black people for example, because the white teeth and eye whites can be perceived as a threat), people in wheelchairs (a chair with arms and legs, very scary), disabled people (behaving strangely as far as the dog is concerned), children (are also scary cos they're unpredictable) drunk or stoned people etc... Then there are other dogs - your dog needs to have dog friends, cos it's a pack species. It needs to play with other dogs, it's as simple as that. As a dog owners it's your fucking responsibility to acknowledge that.

All these things you need to do with your dog and more, and I can bet a million dollars most of these people yelling about their dog having been "a perfect pet" has hardly ever been outside of the yard, much less out among people. A dog that hasn't been socialised properly will, as Kat so accurately said, have a much lower stress level and if you're not apt in looking for the signs the dog will exhibit, then you'll think the dog just snapped. But... that never happens.

I was arrested last week when waggin my tail in the park. I was trying to be 'social' with the dogs, you know, show that I'm friendly and shit


thanks for the advice

BlueZebra said:

You really should have known better. At least they did not put you down for it.

Teacher said:

As a kid we had labs. Nothing but labs. I remember the first one snapped and bit my baby sister in the face. Another one snapped and bit my friend in the face. Both had to be removed from the home....

Just saying...

KatSkrizzle said:

I was raised with Labs too. Luckily, they were all show or breeding dogs and were always very well behaved, except a few pups before proper training. My previous dog, Miniature Schnauzer would attack children if I had ever let him close enough or unassisted with them. He was a vicious bastard some times.
So it is hard to just take a breed and label it really.
It is a shame that humans want the quick simple solution to these types of issues. Destroy the animal then blame an entire breed.
As I said before, my mom has had and still has Rotties. All have been wonderful around children. Her homeowners dropped her because she has Rotties even though she has never filed a claim with them and has used that company for over 30 years now.
Sheer ignorance comes to mind.

shanti0608 said:

Rottweilers are actually the more powerful breed as far as bite versus a pit. But the rotts that I knew were big wussies and liked to be lap dogs. I have a friend that breeds them. They are very sweet.