CalhounSq said:

To be honest, I doubt that anyone who couldn't take their time to walk in the store like civilized human beings feels as though they should take any responsibility....or feel any guilt....and most definitely will be at the head of the line NEXT YEAR to do it all over again....I'd be willing to bet that quite a few people are privately thinking that the Wal-Mart worker should've gotten out of the way sooner....sad, but true...

lastdecember said:

Even if you could identify everyone, how do you say they acted with malice and conspired to kill? Any one foot would not in and of itself probably kill him.
If he were punched or thrown down, that individual could be charged with manslaughter ( no malice, but reckless disregard for safety and life that could lead to death).
[Edited 11/29/08 17:58pm]
[Edited 11/29/08 17:58pm]

SynthiaRose said:

exactly it's like a mass panic

SynthiaRose said:

Exactly. The law is going to assign the risk to the store. But they may also find that the store did all that was reasonable and it happened anyway. Which means no damages.
So I expect it to settle because the store is, after all, engaging in a normal manner for businesses on Black Friday. So what happened at this store could have happened anywhere in the country on Black Friday. So how can one store be negligent but every other store engaged in the same practice is not?

That's why it will settle rather than go to court. The plaintiffs may win but get nothing for it.

Uh-oh, looks like the police will be included in the lawsuits. They were aware of, and had constructive notice of a hazardous situation and failed to act.
They are equally liable . . . hmmmm.




Stores need to better plan for crowds, police say

BY MATTHEW CHAYES | matthew.chayes@newsday.com
10:03 PM EST, November 29, 2008

As police brass dissect what happened when a stampeded of shoppers outside a Valley Stream Wal-Mart left a seasonal worker dead, they may lean on the stores themselves to better plan for events like Black Friday, a department spokesman said yesterday.

Nassau police say the stampede outside the discount chain store was foreseeable given the huge crowds that gather for post-Thanksgiving sales.

"I can't stress enough how the onus is on them," said Det. Lt. Kevin Smith, the county police's chief spokesman.

Wal-Mart has defended its security planning, saying it anticipated the large crowds, hired more personnel and put up barricades.


Smith said if businesses refused to work with police to make events safer, authorities could take steps like calling in the fire marshal to inspect the premises for safety.

But the Black Friday melee is proof the department can no longer leave security for these kinds of events as much in the hands of the private business when the public is at risk, said Jim Carver, president of the Nassau Police Benevolent Association.

"We got caught with our pants down on this one," Carver said. "There should be more communication between the department and the mall on what is going on."

Meanwhile, police said more about what happened in the early hours before the crowd pushed its way into the store and trampled seasonal maintenance worker Jdimytai Damour to death.

Summoned by a call around 3:10 a.m. reporting a disturbance in the crowd waiting for the Wal-Mart to open, Nassau police found no criminality but still encouraged the crowd to be orderly, Smith said. Smith said officers addressed bargain hunters in person and over a loudspeaker.

At that point, the crowd was about 500 people, police have said. Later, it swelled to about 2,000, according to authorities.

" 'Look, you've got to stay tight and neat and orderly,' " Smith said the officers told the crowd. " 'Let's make this work for everybody.' "

Those officers stayed for about 30 minutes, he said. Police did not return to the store again until the predawn stampede, Smith said.

The crowd erupted in pushing, shoving and cutting in line when the interior doors were opened just before 5 a.m., Smith said. Starting at 5:03 a.m., after the crowd had pushed the outside doors off their hinges, police had sent nearly three dozen units, including police officers and ambulances, he said.

http://www.newsday.com/ne...4172.story

SUPRMAN said:

Same as a crowd of white kids beating a black kid and then he dies and no one can figure out which blow killed him. This crowd was disorderly from the get go, the fact that they knocked the entire door off the hinges shows their violent rage, i hope that the family of the deceased sue every last mother fucker in that crowd, and they all have no money left to live and lose everything they have.

CalhounSq said:

Of course they didnt feel differently, this is the typical selfish American, they actually BITCHED that the store was closed after the guy was killed! and they couldnt shop.

reneGade20 said:

you're right!

lastdecember said:

Way to generalize there. And this situation is ANYTHING but typical.

This article makes some good points. I hope we will see less shopping related carnage going forward.
-----

http://www.latimes.com/ne...1385.story

From the Los Angeles Times
Opinion
Holiday shopping -- just don't
Black Friday and Cyber Monday? Turn them away this year.
By Juliet Schor

November 28, 2008

As if American consumers don't already have enough on their minds, here come Black Friday and Cyber Monday, the nation's annual rituals of mandatory shopping. The looming twosome are like unwanted dinner guests who arrive in the middle of a stressful marital spat or nerve-racking toddler meltdown. We want to say, "Just go away." But there they are on the doorstep, hungry beasts with cloying smiles, dangling a GPS for under $100 and a Blu-ray player at the amazing price of $128.

I'm betting they're turned away, and this year will be different. The usual subtle pressures to shop in order to keep the economy humming have been notably absent. Television coverage of sharp-elbowed shoppers will be replaced by mournful accounts of out-of-work breadwinners and somewhat cheerier how-tos on paying in cash. Neither pundits nor politicians -- nor even Op-Ed writers -- will dare suggest that the consumer has a duty, patriotic or otherwise, to fork over more money or take on more debt to buy a boatful of cheap, made-in-China items. Trust me, 2008 will be the holiday season that wasn't.

Americans are facing an economic collapse steeper, more widespread and potentially far longer lasting than anything experienced since the 1930s. The decline in the stock market is the most dramatic of the indicators: Investors have lost all of the gains of the last 11 years. The end of the home-price collapse/foreclosure crisis is still not within sight. And unemployment is soaring. The official rate of 6.5% is a significant underestimate of true joblessness. As early as July, the Economic Policy Institute reported that there were 2.6 job seekers for every open position; that imbalance is sure to be much higher now.

For the last two decades, the U.S. has been a consumer-driven economy. Bursts of spending have lifted us out of a series of short, not-too-painful recessions. And consumers are well aware of their "heroic" role. They've been told over and over that their spending is the basis for our economy. (Less discussed is how the consumer binge led to our gaping trade deficit.) But there's an underlying paradox: Most American households have seen their pay rates stagnate, so buying has only been possible by working more hours or taking on credit. Now there are no extra hours, and wary consumers aren't taking on credit even when it is available.

These imbalances, at the household, national and global level, appear to be well understood by consumers. They recognize that a business-as-usual binge is likely infeasible and certainly unwise.

Predictably, consumers have clamped their wallets shut. A 1.3% decline in retail spending in September ballooned to 2.8% in October, the largest one-month drop in the history of that statistic. Facing such financial uncertainty, who would buy a new car, TV, stereo or sofa? Restaurant spending is dramatically off too, and credit card use is down. While some consumers have been on a debt-fueled binge for quite awhile, apparently they haven't forgotten how to sober up. And fast. They're acting smart and cautious. That's a good thing. Scaling back on gifts and holiday spending this year suddenly seems like the socially acceptable thing to do. Spending liberally can feel unseemly. Even older children will recognize that these are unusual times.

In fact, reining in holiday spending is a message some have been broadcasting for a while. Adbusters, with its Buy Nothing Day, begun in 1992, urges consumers to boycott Black Friday by refusing to purchase anything on the day after Thanksgiving. Performance artist the Rev. Billy Talen and his Church of Stop Shopping target the excesses of the season. The organization I helped to found, the Center for a New American Dream, helps people simplify the holidays by promoting socially responsible gifts, alternative gift fairs and spending time with family and community.

These and many other groups have long recognized that the consumer binge was unsustainable, financially and environmentally. It has been depleting our savings, to be sure, but also degrading the atmosphere, destroying ecosystems and undermining the potential of the planet to support life in all its magnificent forms. Ecological footprint analysis reveals that by the late 1970s, humans had begun to draw down stocks of "natural capital" -- that is, degrade the Earth's ecosystems. We're turning arable land into deserts, transforming ocean areas into chemically induced dead zones and heating up the climate.

The U.S. holiday season, with its traditional excess, has long been an outsized part of that decline. Roughly a quarter of annual spending, garbage and ecological impact occurs between Thanksgiving and New Year's. Measured in carbon alone, that represents five tons of emissions for each American.

This means that there's even more reason to turn away those unwanted dinner guests, Black Friday and Cyber Monday. Don't feel guilty about it. We can find better ways to support one another than funneling our money through giant multinationals in hopes that some trickles down to its employees. Support local and socially responsible businesses when buying what you need. Give all that you can to those who are suffering. Spend less time in malls and more connecting with friends and family. If the experience of those who have already decommercialized their holidays is any guide, you'll find yourself less stressed, more fulfilled and with a little more money in your pocket. I suggest more music, less wrapping paper.

Juliet Schor is a sociology professor at Boston College and is on the board of the Center for a New American Dream.




-----


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SCNDLS said:

sorry but that is the "american face" and has been for the last decade and its getting worse. Its all about "me" is the motto in this country, bragging, ownsership etc...its everywhere you look, and mostly its in the people. This behaviour is typical, just this time someone died becuase of it.

lastdecember said:

Just because that's your perception does not mean it's the reality or typical. The US is a lot of things some good, some bad, like any other place in the world. Americans are also the MOST giving, philanthropic people on Earth so I completely disagree that the nation in general is all about me, me, me. This is a sad, tragic situation that could've really happened anywhere where poor planning and lax security was in place.

SCNDLS said:

Exactly....well said...I mean its not like folks at our football games go ballistic over a bad call and riot in the stands, like in some evolved European countries...when that happens, Americans don't paint the WHOLE of Europe as hooligans...just those responsible...likewise, this type of tragedy isn't a daily occurance in America, and is the sole responsibility of those involved...

reneGade20 said:

People die at football games all over the world ALL the time, but I still wouldn't say that was "typical" of the people from those nations EVEN with the OVERTLY racist behavior black European players are subjected to at most of their games.

lastdecember said:

But you can't identify everyone in the crowd and once he is down, how are they to blame when being pushed and shoved?

SCNDLS said:

Sorry but America is far from what you think it is, true there is good but sorry theres alot of bad and it has gotten worse because the core of people are the ones rotten, that frame of mind. America would not sacrifice anything if put to the test on the whole, and that is true, sure if you ask them one on one they will say "of course i will give, donate, sacrifice something to make someone elses life better" but when it comes down to it, on the whole, we havent sacrificed shit, and this shows in every aspect of this country. First would be that we have the most money of any country and yet have more people not covered and homeless and jobless and poor than any other country, whats causing that gap? the belief that i will do anything to not be at the bottom and fuck the bottom. And two, take Iraq or whatever wars we are in, 150,000 people are fighting those wars and we make it seem like "we are fighting it", what if everyone woke up tomorrow and had to go and help those kids that have been there almost a decade now and will be there at least another 5 years. Or what if they said that global warming was caused by say...cell phones and that everyone had to give it up or go back to something else? what majority would?

So America, yes a great place, but this isnt the 1940's and 50's , we are far from the best at anything, and we need to seriously improve

lastdecember said:

I agree with the core of what you stated.

America (not all of us, but a good percentage of Americans, especially in urban & suburban areas) has lost touch with reality. We are greedy, egotistical, materialistic, shallow human beings with absolutely NO regard for their fellow man. I see it all around me. No one holds the door open for anyone...and when I hold the door for someone else (man or woman) I get a "thank you" maybe 25% of the time. People drive like lunatics on the highways - weaving and cutting in & out of traffic - and that's when they're not driving drunk or high. Parents are content to plop their kids in front of the TV and do as little as possible to rear them, expecting schools to do the job for them. Kids are growing up with little or no boundaries, content to know that however badly they fuck up, mom & dad - or Uncle Sam - will be there to bail them out.

Again...not all of America is like this...but it seems to be becoming the norm rather than the exception. Especially here in New York. Scenes like this Wal-Mart death will only become more commonplace until such time as our society decides to right itself.