I have a female friend, 35, who's been paired with a guy (himself a longtime pal of mine) for about 10 years now. They've lived together for the better part of that time, and they have a 7-year-old son in common. Also, there's a 13-year-old daughter in the household from a previous relationship of hers.

The relationship might be characterized as erratically dysfunctional at best. Most times they are civil enough -- and occasionally quite mutually loving -- but there is always some tension related to baggage from their respective histories, unemployment or finances, different outlooks on life, potential in-laws with whom opposite parties don't get along, uneven educations and vocational aspirations (she's a Ph.D. student and director at a local social services agency; he barely graduated from high school and is OK with making $8/hour in a part-time job at age 36 with a family to take care of), etc. And there have been incidents of infidelity, though I'm pretty confident that hasn't gone on in years.

Anyway, my friend has recently arrived at a place in her faith life where she feels living with this guy is, frankly, sinful. She feels they should be married, though she recognizes few good reasons aside from religious conviction that they should be. She's mentioned not wanting to move on for the single life or the possibility of a new relationship, because sloughing off family commitment would be a bad example for her kids (who often ask when/if they're getting married). And moving on also could open up the introduction of a third male in an already-mixed situation. Messy all around.

For her BF's part, he wants to get married, and has asked on several occasions. Despite being utterly inept in either a romantic relationship or as co-head of a household, he says he "loves" her. And it's roundly accepted that he needs her stability in his life, even as he's heretofore shown no discipline wherein he'd return it.

This woman (to her BF's chagrin, I suspect) looks to me and my wife for guidance on many occasions. She's not certain what to do. I told her I'm mulling the situation, and that I've taken an interim position of neutral support. But I'm honestly thrown -- my mind is in one place; my heart in another.

What say y'all?
[Edited 12/17/08 3:05am]

Has she discussed with him that he might want to try upgrading his job?

Their relationship doesn't sound all that...pleasant but then again ten years is a long time so maybe marriage would work for them? To me, it seems if they were going to break up, they might've done it already.

It's really all down to what would make them both happiest.

Does she feel he's "inept"? Like, has she actually said that to you?

purplesweat said:

The span of time does evidence to me there's some commitment -- or at least unshakable codependence -- in the relationship. They've "broken up" several times, but it never sticks.

She repeatedly talks to him about his work situation. He alternately gets pissed or listens to her, job hunts for a week, then returns to Xbox.

She hasn't used the actual words "inept" in reference to him, but she's in no uncertain terms made it known -- repeatedly -- that he has shown little character (or stamina or know-how, maybe?) to be what would make her happy. And when I press her to say she loves him, it comes off as a begrudged confession.

He, on the other hand, is tough to read. He will say he loves her, and on some level I believe him. But I wonder if it's the love of a committed spouse, or that of a child who finds in this woman the decent mother he never had... which is horribly unfair to her, no? Also, I think deep down he actually resents her maturity.
[Edited 12/17/08 3:07am]

Flowers2 said:

I think you make sense here. But if they don't get married, she'll still be beating herself up for not living according to her understanding of her faith. I guess that's the tough part.

I mean, I've suggested they cut out the sexual component. That might ease her conscience a bit. But I think in terms of her church, for example, she feels shacking up is a bad example and, perhaps, hurting her witness, ya know? She seems to want to live a more genuine life in faith.
[Edited 12/17/08 3:01am]

Lammastide said:

I understand.. if they're both willing to work things out, then yes, they should marry ..

Flowers2 said:

Sister, don't be switching up on me like that!

Ohhh... this is a tough one.

Thanks for the comments so far, BTW.

Lammastide said:

I'm sorry lol.. in my 1st post, I said that cause alot of times folks marry for the wrong reasons, but she's striving to want to live according to her faith and whatever problems do come along, The Lord will work all things out for the good.. so yes, scratch my 1st post.. they should marry..

Flowers2 said:

I appreciate your insight.

Lammastide said:

anytime

here is my humble opinion:

if she feels somewhere deep inside she should not marry, then she shouldn't. she will be more true to herself and therefore more truthful to God.

Lammastide said:

Hmm, I'd say no to marriage then. As difficult as it will be, she needs to find her equal.

She can't let her faith dictate her happiness, either.

Your friend would be better off staying single. The relationship she has with her current boyfriend is not working. Marriage wont solve any problem they have, it will only make it worse for both partners and for the children.

Ah Lammy you sound like you have a friend that's like me. Too compassionate for her own good. This is what is going on.

Your friend is a woman that has hooked up with a guy who she feels like she can fix. When she met this man she believed over time she could change him, make him want more for his life, push him to do better for himself.

The sad truth is, this man is happy where he is. They fight because she can NOT change him and is dissatisfied with him and sees him as an "anchor" and "holding her back". She loves him but in time those feelings of him not living up to her expectation is eventually going to end in a break-up. He already knows this because in his heart, he knows who he is and he is aware she wants him to change. For him that is a tall order he can not achieve, he will NEVER change and she should not expect him to. She is living in fantasy.

One of two things should happen....

She should ask herself, can I be happy living like this? She needs to make peace with loving a man that doesn't mind being poor and stop criticizing him and tearing him down, then stay with him. He doesn't want marriage, he may never feel the need since he IS content. This is the life she has chosen, she needs to be happy and maybe he may marry her but she should not expect it.

OR

Realize that this man will not change, and if this life isn't what she wants then she needs to leave him.

SHE CAN NOT FIX HIM. He will not change and it is unfair and very wrong of her to expect that. If he wants to be a shiftless bum, he was a shiftless bum when she met him, she knew this, she HAS to come to grips with that and accept it.


God, I know her situation first hand. I left the father of my two kids, I STILL love him, but am happy that I love me more. Give your friend a hug for me.

Lammastide said:

I can't imagine encouraing anyone to stay in a relationship such as this. Especially with children involved. Parents are children's role models for relationships later in life. She simply needs to ask herself what kind of marriage she'd like for her children and if this would live up to that standard.

From the very limited info ...

This does not sound like a thriving healthy relationship that one would want to committ an entire life to. Especially with children who are watching every move and learning their future by the parental role model(s)

dawntreader said:

An interesting take. I can respect that.

Thanks again, all. I value every one of your comments.

Kick him 2 the curb. Next.....

it sounds like she'll eventually become resentful for the various reasons that she not happy, i.e., his lack of motivation for a better job to better care for his family and other things. That'll lead to fights, arguements, etc., and all the while the kids are watching. You would be doing the kids a disservice to stay together just because that's what you're "supposed to do."

I think too many parents who have kids and do not get along but stay together "for the kids" hurt the kids more in the long run. to watch your parents argue, fight, and hate and resent each other is not good for their future relationships and general well-being.

Lammastide said:

Lammastide said:

See, this is yet another reason why I find religion - to be frank - ridiculous. I don't like to offend, but I would be less than honest if I said that I thought any religion has inside info on anything.

As for their relationship, it sounds to me that he - with his satisfaction with simple pleasures - understands happiness far better than she does. Regardless, in the words of Joe Rogan, 'Why don't they just hang out and then, if they don't feel like hanging out at some point, not hang out anymore?'.

Staying in an unhappy relationship is far more detrimental to children then moving on to someone new that makes you happy.

Ace said:

I've just now decided that I'm not leaving Canada until you're at least the deacon of a church somewhere!

Lammastide said:

Better stock up on provisions.

Leave him cuz he'll never change.

paintedlady said:

Been there and done that and it NEVER works. You can't teach ambition.

SCNDLS said:

Exactly, this is why I left my guy too.

Lammastide said:

I will refrain from becoming evilly vicious about your friend's faith but religion shouldn't even factor into this situation. Her situation isn't fucked up because she's not following religious edicts not to live in "sin", it's fucked up because she's with a fucked up man.

Marriage isn't going to fix him, likely it may make things worse as she will have legal obligations with someone who isn't dependable and probably will not lean towards larger committment even though they are married.

I'm not a big advocate of staying married for appearances or for the kids. The kids can have a relationship with him outside the home if they need to. I think you should tell her not to marry this guy.

.
[Edited 12/17/08 11:14am]