paintedlady said:

What you're saying essentially is that spanking is appropriate because abuse can happen in non-physical ways as well....

purplesweat said:

purplesweat said:

your opinion... talking does nothing... I've seen the results of 'no talking and all action' .. that's why they behave when a belt comes into the picture... all that stress of yelling.. forget that.. visuals are more effect lol ..

meow85 said:

I did speak to you on the spanking/beating difference. You don't hit to hurt.

I have sat down with several child welfare advocates with women on this issue. Every time I explain myself I get no arguments from the people who are against spankings. I am always told that they are commenting towards beatings that hurt and leave marks, all child advocates I speak with face to face that have children themselves are OK with spankings that do not visibly hurt the children.
I have several friends in the social services field. All have spanked their own children appropriately but will not openly advocate it because of the possible outcome of an abuser hurting their own child. I worked with homeless teens in community gardens, many that were abused this way. You learn a lot when you see what NOT to do.

meow85 said:

Yes

paintedlady said:

But does it actually teach right from wrong, or does it just instill fear? And like the question I posed before that neither of you have bothered with, shouldn't teaching proper motivation for doing good also matter? What kind of good can a good a action really be called if it's done to avoid punishment?

You make the assumption that a special-needs adult can't learn. This isn't true, and by saying that you've clearly never spent any time around adults like these. People with Down's Syndrome especially are capable of learning and remembering -it's just that their functioning is permanently stuck at a lower age than their biological one. But they do learn. So how is it that you can't hit one of these adults, but you can hit a child?

....worst case, I'll try to get out to the penitentary at least once a month....

paintedlady said:

What the fuck?

You just justified one form of punishment that many would call abuse by saying other abuse happens. Can you explain the logic in that?

meow85 said:

You spank to teach boundaries, not to have a child fear you although a healthy sense of fear is essential for every child to have s they don't get into a dangerous situation themselves. You should also teach proper motivation first, but not every situation works well for each child.
An adult is an adult, memory and responsiveness are two different things, children learn boundaries to teach them to function properly in society, adults with learning disorders will not function in society the same way as a normal adult. Better to adjust to the adult with the learning disability to obtain a desired result, with a child a child has to learn life lessons that the world doesn't revolve around them as it did when they were infants. Children need to learn how to compromise.

meow85 said:

No... abuse can happen in any form, spankings is a common method used for abuse, because abuse can happen so easily in spanking methods, many pediatricians and social workers want to do away with this form of discipline. many just don't know how to use spankings appropriately. And you can kill a child if you hit them too hard. Child deaths are the reason why this became an issue.

I spank my children, noting wrong with it, I don't abuse my kids, spanking children isn't abuse, beating them and causing physical/emotional pain is.

paintedlady said:

But why? If other methods are just as effective and there has never been any empirically proven evidence that spanking has any advantage over other forms of discipline, why do it?

Also, I hate to have to point this out again, but you didn't even attempt to answer my question. You said spanking -something many people consider a form of abuse even in its so-called milder forms -is acceptable because other kinds of abuse happen. I asked you to explain the logic behind that. Will you, please?

meow85 said:

Girl, I don't spank because abuse can happen in other forms, I spank because for that situation for that child it was an effective learning tool.
I don't spank to teach boundaries, but the spanking aids in that, I am not perfect, but my kids are well adjusted, and my kids aren't a bother to others they are around. People in general enjoy the company of my children, they make efforts to tell me so.

Spanking can be used and not be abusive, this is where you and I disagree. I spank to help my children not hurt them. I won't spank other people's kids because those parents are different then me and even if they do spank, its not my place to do so. I will never spank other people's kids, but my children are loved by me, and I put them first, I never forget what they need from me. This is at the core of why I discipline in the first place. If I didn't NEED to spank, I wouldn't.
usually I don't, there are other methods of discipline, the best is the most effective for any given situation, depending on the child.

OK... I am repeating myself now. I am talked out over this. You will not agree and find loopholes in our conversation. Feel free, I know what I know. my children are loved and happy, and that's what's important.

paintedlady said:

I'm not finding loopholes. I'm asking you to explain the logic behind what you said earlier. You refuse to do that and continue to skirt around the question. Perhaps you shouldn't be making statements if you can't or won't elaborate on them.

hokie said:

Would you like to elaborate?

meow85 said:

I did answer your questions. You do not like views and refuse to acknowledge my answer because you are in disagreement.
I can't be any more clearer.... OK a breakdown.

Children do not have to be spanked to be abused.
Many will be abused regardless of being spanked.

separate issue.... why I spank

I spank my children usually as a last resort after other methods have failed
I do not beat my kids to inflict pain
I do not hit in anger
I never hit with my own hand, this prevents me hitting IN anger, you can hurt your child A HELL OF A LOT MORE WITH YOUR HAND than a belt.
I do not use spanking solely as a method of discipline, I use other methods
I talk to my kids, people who spank do talk to there kids
I want to teach my children boundaries, spanking is one of the tools used to do this
I don't always spank my kids
I don't always spank my kids
I don't always spank my kids
understand?
this means that I have an understanding already that I HAVE tried other methods and THEY did not work. Most parents that spank do try other methods first. Most parents don't go whipping kids willy nilly.


Now for why.....

IMO....

Not are children are the same, not all children need spankings
Not all children will respond to either parents the same, meaning that some individuals easily get that "respect" while others will not get it with out some sort of consequence attached.
Not all situations calls for spankings (all this you already know)
Some children do not respect boundaries unless they are spanked.

What I know... social workers have to keep their jobs, most of those that advocate to eliminate spankings have spanked their own children at one time or another. Out of the 5 social workers I know an one pediatrician (that are parents) all 6 have spanked their own children but tell parents not to, all are good parents.

the only real thing i can say here is that you should never slap/hit your teenagers as a means of trying to keep them in line or getting them to 'respect your authority'. it makes things worse, it makes them completely lose respect for you.

paintedlady said:

No, that didn't address the question at all. You said spanking was acceptable because abuse can happen in any form. Can you please elaborate on the logic behind saying that? You already told me why you think spanking is necessary for you and I'm not debating that, nor am I looking to find loopholes in the argument. I'm looking for logic and consistency, and I'm asking questions that I think should be addressed.


You fail to even approach a single question I've asked so far, and instead turn to justifying why you think spanking is such a useful tool. Let's try this one more time:

1.Considering how many able-bodied and able-minded adults don't respond to reason, why can't adults be hit or spanked?

2. Why is it in fact a criminal offense to hit or spank an adult, even as a "teaching" tool, but not a child? A man who "taps" his wife in punishment is an abuser, but the same man who "taps" his child in punishment is just using a parenting tool. Why?

3. What gives adults the right not to be hit, that doesn't apply to children? And why do most people who do advocate spanking say it should stop at a certain age?

4. If, as some supporters say, children can be spanked because they lack the higher adult faculties, why can't an adult with Down's Syndrome or dementia be hit or spanked, since they function on the same cognitive level as a child?

5. Why would recognized authorities on children and mental health publicly decry spanking as ineffective at best, and abuse at worst, if there were nothing to their statements? Keeping mind that each group has conducted empirically testable and repeatable studies to come to these conclusions.

6. Why would a social worker or pediatrician lose their job if they advocated spanking? If it's an acceptable and useful parenting tool, why would there be a problem?

7. How do parents who do not spank their children teach boundaries, rules, and respect? It's statistically impossible that their children are all well-mannered and reasonable, so it can't be assumed that they are exceptions with perfect children who would spank if that were not the case.

8. Why would entire countries ban the practice if it were not considered at best useless as a parenting method?


I already know your stance on spanking, and why you think it makes sense to do so. I already know that you differentiate between one form of hitting and another, and I already know that you're under the belief that a belt does less harm than a hand. That's nto what I'm asking, so I don't know why you continue to answer as if that is what I asked. I outlined here what my questions are. Can you answer any of them?

paintedlady said:

Tell him to knock it off and point him towards the toilet. Or offer to put him back in diapers if he can't pee in the proper place. What the fuck is a smack on the butt supposed to do?

meow85 said:

It's supposed to tell him "when you do this, it fucking hurts. So don't do it."

Kind of long--complaining post.

When my kids were babies, I thought I had it so hard. Danny was 4, and Adam was one when I had Naiema. I can remember basically getting no sleep on some nights with one kid getting up at night after another. I had no social life and went practically everywhere with my kids. One in the shopping cart seat, one in the back of the cart and one holding my hand. I couldn't keep my job. Day care was too expensive. My husband was pretty much never home.

A few years ago, my daughter loved everything Disney, still gave me spontaneous hugs and let me braid her hair every day. She wore what I picked out for her and talked to me all the time.

My boys would sneak up at night to play video games. Create costumes based off their favorite anime characters and play sword fight in the yard. My main complaint was the constant wrestling and flipping around the house.

Now my oldest son is 15, my middle son turns 13 on Friday and my daughter will be 12 in December. Now I cry at night sometimes, not out of frustration or fatigue, but because my oldest is heading in the wrong direction. He actually hurts my feelings some times with the things he says and does. He's so inconsiderate and ungrateful.

He has to get up at 5:30 a.m. to catch the high school bus at 6:15. Lights out is 10 p.m. Not to mention he shares a room with his brother who daily tells me nearly falls asleep on the bus in the afternoon. So last night around 10:10, the lights and TV are still on, and I go in to say good night, and tell them it's lights out time. My son is looking at a skate catalog and tells me no. I turn the light out anyway and he actually threw the catalog at me and it hit me in my chest port (where I used to get chemo). I took the book and shut his door. He then rips open the door to confront me about my attitude. I slapped him in his face. He continued to try to get in my face. I was trying so hard not to push him, which I didn't do. I ended it by telling him I was going to get his Dad in there. I felt bad about slapping him, but all he had to do was put the magazine down and leave it at that. I can't have him thinking he can bully me. He was actually confrontational with me. I told him to get in the bed, and he says crap like, "no. I want to know what your problem is," about two feet from my face. What the hell????!!!!!

He's like that all the time now. Never wants to listen. Argues about everything. Failing his classes (doesn't turn work in, even though he knows how to do it). Sneaks around and smokes cigarettes. Has a girlfriend that has some emotional problems (cuts herself and takes pills). The music he listens to is that horrible sounding screaming, heavy sounding music. He calls it black-metal or death-metal. I'm just at my wits end with him.

My daughter is only concerned about her friends and boys. If I go in her room, she'll say to her friend on the phone, "hold on my mom's in here." She won't let me fix her hair anymore and hates all the clothes I pick out for her. She doesn't even say "good night, I love you," anymore to me.

I can't complain about my middle son except for his grades. He does what he's told, helps out without being asked, is getting into playing drums and guitar with his dad and is generally good natured.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all this is that babies and little kids are no where near as hard to deal with as pre-teen and teens. I never thought my kids would break my heart.

FunkMistress said:

Couldn't stay away could you?

^^^

Yeah. I'm not advocating that instead of dealing with your kids that you just beat them instead. But I really think that parents these days are really too caught up in trying to be their kids' friends instead of being their parent. I hope that when my kids are grown that we will have a friendship. Right now I'm their mom. I can't be their friend too. I also think that parents try and "talk it out" too much. YOU are the boss! Act like it!

hokie said:

No.

It fuckin kills me when people who have never raised a child get all fucking judgemental.

Just because you've been a kid, or been around kids as an adult, doesn't mean you have the faintest clue about what it is like to give birth to a human being, and spend every moment of the rest of your life worrying and working your ass off to help them grow into happy, humble, aware, intelligent, respectful and productive people without killing them or letting them get maimed in the process. They can't even conceptualize the constant struggle that we experience between the desire to control our children and their environments to keep them safe, and our dreams of letting them fly free to learn their own lessons and blossom into the amazing strangers they will someday become.

Add to that the feelings that come with the knowledge that you are constantly being judged by everyone around you on not only your interactions with your kids, but the behavior, manners, demeanor and even appearance of the kids themselves. It's a tremendous burden of stress.

Then there is the pain and fear that comes with seeing your kids grow and change into people you don't recognize. Sometimes every day brings a new personality quirk, behavior or opinion that is so totally different from the sweet child you once knew that it terrifies you. These children are not just a part of your heart, they are a part of your body. The need to see them be not just happy, but good, in every sense of the word, is overwhelming.

These are just a few of the many factors that drive parents' decisions, actions, thoughts and feelings. Factors that non-parents will never understand. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not even saying I don't welcome feedback from someone who is outside the swirl of emotions. Sometimes it is a very good thing to hear the perspective of an outsider. But the moment you start judging me as if you know better, I will swiftly tell you to shut the fuck up.

meow85 said:

It's supposed to tell him "when you do this, it fucking hurts. So don't do it."

I think it would be great if folks would just realize that one form of discipline doesn't work for all children...