I used to say I'd never spank my kids, but sometimes time outs don't work. When you people have them (if you do and if you don't plan to then shut UP! ) you'll realize all of your idealistic thinking won't always work. I always used it as a last resort and it is not the freaking end of the world. They aren't traumatized.

I'll never forget when I was about 12 and I had MAJOR attitude I was being a smart ass with my dad and he said, "Don't think you're too old for me to put you over my knee and beat your ass."

[quote]

meow85 said:

especially this bit

ZombieKitten said:[quote]

i thought having a baby was like taking a giant crap

horatio said:

x1000

horatio said:

Yeah...it is. If you're crapping a watermelon.


Don't you wish you were a woman?

meow85 said:

you should love and fear the authority of a mother.. that's my point of 'fear of authority' .. not the fear where you are petrified, I'm talking about that fear where they reverence and respect mom and dad and wouldn't even dare to think to do anything bad or else they know they'll face consequences... all the talking in the world doesn't put that in a child, if the child is mischievous, of course all kids are different, all are not bad, some do behave when you tell them, but some others need more discipline...

Flowers2 said:

I don't think a person should ever be afraid of another person, and that includes children's view of their parents. Reverence and respect are miles away from fear.

If it's wrong to hit an adult, it doesn't make any sense that it would be right to hit a child. No, I don't have children. I don't pretend to know anything about raising kids. But what I do know is that double standards are bullshit, and that it makes no sense to ban physical force against grown adults but to allow it for small children. Like I said, an adult can fight back, but a child is defenseless and cannot. That a child is smaller and weaker than an adult makes it doubly wrong than hitting another adult IMO. That, to me, is like advocating kicking a chihuahua to train it while kicking a rottweiller a is considered a punishable offense.
[Edited 10/22/08 22:43pm]

I used corporal punishment (as well as other types) on my children on certain occasions on all three of my kids. They are not messed up mentally, they are well adjusted so far, and I have a great relationship with all of them.

there is a difference between spanking a child to discipline them and beating the shit outta them due in frustration and anger. I ever hit with my hands either. i wait, talk to them, explain what about to happen and then I make hem give me the belt. Yup the belt, because if I ever use my hands I will leave welts, or bruises.
Its too easy to strike in anger if you use your hands.

Teaching children humility, and consequence at a young age is difficult, and they need to know fear enough to obtain a healthy sense of self-preservation. With o fear, kids do stupid shit as they get older, like a daughter thinking its OK to go home a night by herself drunk from a bar at 3 am.

Most kids that grew up with a healthy sense of fear have better judgment than that.

physical abuse or emotional abuse is always used to teach fear and consequence.
time out is emotional abuse.

meow85 said:

your opinion.

paintedlady said:

I'm glad you said that ... you know what I mean when I say 'fear' ....

paintedlady said:

So what's your response to the millions of children who were never hit and who grow up to be healthy, functioning adults? What's your take on countries who've banned physical punishment and have a significantly lower crime and deliquency rate than countries who support or tolerate it? And do you honestly believe the only way to teach a child humility and respect is to smack it into them? And if that's the case, how do you explain all those people -whole countries, even -who never got hit and turned out to be fine upstanding adults?

And lastly, would you advocate, say, an employer taking a belt or a hand to a disobedient employee, or one spouse to another, as a means of punishment? What if talking to and reasoning had been tried and had no effect?

Flowers2 said:

I know exactly what you mean...

hokie said:

I have alot of male relatives that I helped out with.. and uhm.. let's just say .. I was not gonna have my blood pressure up with all those kids ..I HAD to have a belt..they were not gonna have me loosing my mind .. oh man.. the teenagers I wanted to throw them in the wall lol ..

Flowers2 said:

I understand the concern expressed by people like Meow. Many people do no look at corporal punishment as a tool, but harness beatings as a weapon against their children. This is why there is such concern over spankings.

Spankings shouldn't physically hurt.... its more of a way to humiliate kids if done properly. Emotional abuse like locking a child up in a room can cause severe psychological damage as well, a child may become claustrophobic because of it.

Just because you don't hit doesn't mean that the child isn't being hurt. parent can't hurt a child if they use any method of discipline in a wrong way. To me, if you know HOW to spank appropriately the child will be better off for it, depending on the child/situation and age.

I spanked my daughter because she was fond of climbing up to dangerous places as a toddler. Pulling her down and removing objects to climb on didn't help.
Finally I sat her down and tried to explain, she got up and started to climb up a chair, I got the belt, made her drop trouser and hit her once, she wasn't hurt because I only tapped her, she stopped climbing. Now my mom can watch her without having to be so diligent, she can also concentrate on my other son too.

As children get older, these situations don't have to happen because communication is more effective as they get older. parenting is not easy, there are no quick fixes and no easy answers. But its so worth the challenge.

Flowers2 said:

Would you advocate a high school teacher who, 5 days a week deals with several groups of 30 or so odd teenagers -some of them complete shits, let's be honest -hitting a kid? What if they lost their temper? What if it was a school trip and said teacher was with the kid all day and not just for an hour long class?

I have a serious question for those who advocate hitting kids: Why can parents do it when teachers can't anymore? Why does biology (or adoption) allow force as an option when non-biology or non-adoption forbids it? If spanking or hitting is done to instil "fear" or respect for authority, then shouldn't a child need to respect or fear other important authority figures as well? Or is disrespect supposedly brought about by nonviolence acceptable when it's a teacher, minister, or police officer?

I'm not being facetious. Why is a line drawn?

meow85 said:

based on reply #66, you didn't.. and I even broke it down prior to what I meant.... if you have a kid fighting adults verbally or physically.... that is called.. 'no fear of authority'.. no kid should be doing this, and there's enough of them doing it...

meow85 said:

I so totally agree with this. And no, I didn't always because I was raised with absolute abuse for even a minor offense. I have five boys and a daughter, and when four of them were younger, I used corporal punishment. That's all I knew. I thought it was right.

There's a 10 year gap between my two youngest and the 3rd son. So, in that time, after realizing that all the whuppin's in the world did no good at all, I changed. And it happened one day when my Gabriel was 4 years old. He used to have tantrums. He was a very fussy baby, and I just could not figure out what was wrong when he had them. I tried everything. Time-outs, no TV, taking away a toy. Remember I still had a 10 year old, a 13 year old, a 15 and a 16 year old at home. I was stressed to the max. Single parent too. Plus, I worked two jobs.

One day Gabriel started with his screaming, and I just grabbed him and hugged him as hard as I could, and wouldn't let him go. He tried for a minute to get away, but then he just collapsed into my arms, started sucking his thumb, and got really quiet. From then on, everytime he'd start to fuss, I'd just hug him really tightly. And that HUG became the solution. I then had Dominic, who was and is the most perfect child I could ever ask for. He's 16 now, and I have never laid a hand on him. Ever since he was little, if he had a problem or something was wrong, and he had an attitude, I'd just walk up and hug him as hard as I could. And I wouldn't let go. That simple thing defused any hostility and anger and we usually ended up laughing like hell. It still works!

Now, as for Gabriel, when he was a teenager, he gave me lots of grief. He was great until he turned 15, then it was hell. He did have a job, and he went to school...most of the time... but he got in with the wrong crowd and for three years he put me through it. Drinking...smoking...doing stupid crap...I was tough too. Once I called the police on him and his friends myself for underaged drinking. I was at work and he decided to have a party at my house. They all got in some serious trouble. I called all the parents too. He paid his fine with his own paycheck.

But, he grew out of it. He's in the Army now. He's toned down his drinking, and he calls me twice a week and talks for 2 hours. He's 19 and I feel like we have a great relationship now.

I'm just glad it's almost over. Because I'm worn out. Two more years and my baby will be in college. FREEDOM!! WOOT!!!

meow85 said:

Again, you are referring to beatings. I never slap the shit outta kids, don't advocate that. I said spankings. First you need to know the difference. Physical abuse is never OK. Neither is emotional abuse.
Adults don't need to be spanked, adults have a level of comprehension that toddlers/ young children do not.

What are spankings to you? Many countries do not advocate physical abuse with any minor. I am not speaking of physical abuse, I am speaking of spankings, not "beating the shit outta your kids"

WTH?

paintedlady said:

First off, how is deliberately humiliating a child not a form of abuse itself, if that is indeed all corporal punishment is?

Second, I have a challenge for you. Next time you are with another adult, have them hit you with a belt. Not hard, just with the force they or you would use on a child. You know what? It FUCKING HURTS. I'm a grown woman, with a fairly high pain tolerance (multiply pierced and tattooed) and can't handle "only a tap".* So what does it feel like to a small child? I'm serious. Next time you get the opportunity, volunteer yourself to be "tapped" once or twice lightly. There's definite pain involved.




*This scenario actually came about for me during a conversation about corporal punishment with some friends. Some were for, some against. Some have kids, some don't. But as a group we decided it would be wise that if any of us were going to hold any kind of serious position on this method of punishment that we'd have to know what it felt like, physically at least.

Just wanted to add that I was terrified of my mother and step-dad, and I never, ever, ever wanted my children to be afraid of me. Afraid to talk to me...afraid to come to me with problems...afraid that if they DID make a mistake, they'd get hit. I grew up like that, and I still get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think about it.

noimageatall said:

I'm gonna try this

meow85 said:

meow? where in the world are you going? I didn't say beat teenagers.. you can't.. I said that earlier on this thread ... I wasn't loosing my mind constantly yelling at kids under 10, who don't listen.... a belt was the authority lol.. the teenagers I didn't even deal with..

Flowers2 said:

No, that's a lack of respect, and that's not the same thing. Why should anyone fear authority?

You didn't address my point earlier. Does a behaviour really qualify as good if it's done to avoid punishment or out of fear? I can't think of any moral theory that would argue good behaviour done out offear qualifies as goodness. And yes that does matter IMO. Since what we're talking about is essentially goodness versus badness and ways to teach children the difference, then moral theory comes into play even if we choose not to think about it in an abstract way like that.

ZombieKitten said:

It works!

the only real thing i can say here is that you should never slap/hit your teenagers as a means of trying to keep them in line or getting them to 'respect your authority'. it makes things worse, it makes them completely lose respect for you.

meow85 said:

Yes it smarts (with older kids), but to a point were you see marks no. and on a toddler that can't form full sentences, a pat on a diapered bum does not hurt... my daughter didn't cry, she just knew I was serious. Message sent. she was two, she didn't cry, she just looked at me and got down.

You don't hit to inflict pain, you hit to let them know you mean business... there is a marked difference. You telling me you were hurt, well shit I don't hit my kids like that, what type of belt was used? many factors there, so your point hold zero water. Again you are speaking of beatin the shit outta someone.
This is not what I am talking about. You don't have to cause physical pain, but humiliation or shame is a factor.

If I hit with my hand it will do a hell of a lot of damage on a child's skin/tissue. THAT IS ABUSE! Slapping with our hands hurts.

How do you teach young children boundaries without teaching them a sense of shame?

paintedlady said:

I'm talking about spankings. I'm talking about even minor use of physical force -which many, many children never have used on them and has been outlawed in certain countries. And yet, these people turn out fine.

Obviously adults have a higher cognitive level than children, but that's hardly an argument that lower mental and emotional ability can only respond to physical force. Using the same logic you just have, one could say it's acceptable also to spank adults with Down's Syndrome or elderly patients with dementia, since they do not have the same high level of comprehension as the average adult. After all, if they, like children, can't be reasoned with the way a regular adult can, according to the pro-spanking logic it's acceptable to spank them.

I find it fascinating how many people advocate this method of punishment -defend it even, when there is no empirical evidence it does any good. Several reputable organizations have actually researched the effectiveness of corporal punishment and spoken out against it, including UNESCO, the Canadian Pediatrics Society, the Australian Psychological Society, the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health, and the American Psychological Association. If professional organizations that deal directly with children and mental health don't know what they're talking about, who does? Or what about the at least 25 nations that have completely outlawed physical punishment? Do you mean to tell me the children of thsoe countries are little hellions running loose with no respect for authority or grasp of basic morals?

Flowers2 said:

You didn't answer my question. I'm not talking about beating, I'm talking about spanking and other so-called light uses of force. Since parents are allowed to do it, why can't other authority figures do it anymore? Why draw a line?

paintedlady said:

How is deliberately shaming or humiliating your child NOT a form of abuse?

There must be a way to teach a young child boundaries without spanking or humiliating. Millions of parents seem to manage just fine without that.

noimageatall said:

We need to learn more teaching methods, I can do this with my daughter now, but when she was smaller she had a stubborn streak in her that was dangerous. She electrocuted herself twice since she loved to play with outlets, and she loved drinking out of the toilet all the time. I had to leave the toilet unflushed in my house...eewwwww. She's a trip.