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How come men don't worry about "having it all"? Women who have outside jobs and children are always so concerned about their work/life balance. Rightly so, IMO. It can be tough to work enough to pay the bills, yet not so much you end up missing out on your kids.
So how come this doesn't seem to be a big issue for men? Certainly there are individual males who are concerned, but I don't see this on the same grand scale as women. Men are rarely seen to be fussing over whether they can be an executive and a father the same way women do over being an executive and a mother. Many women worry they're not doing their jobs as parents if they go outside of the home to work, often feeling guilty even if the job was taken out of economic necessity. But when's the last time, say, a popular men's magazine ran an article addressing their readers' fears of being inadequate fathers for taking outside jobs? Why is this difference? Is it a leftover from traditional gender roles? And if that's the case, why weren't men concerned in the first place? Since it's more-or-less agreed upon that children need both male and female role models, why don't more men seem to be as concerned as women about balancing parenthood and a job? Take in point Sarah Palin. Nevermind anything else about her or her shaky qualifications, why is she (Or Hilary, or any other female politician) being asked if she's suitable for the job because she's a mother, but men in politics who are fathers are not being questioned? Isn't this just playing into the idea that women can't adequately do both, and reinforcing fears of neglect? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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OK, I'll put in my few cents worth 
My husband, at the early age of 27, was seeking a partner to bear his children. I don't think he had a grand plan as such, but it has certainly fallen into place as if he had one  So he met me (step 1 complete) and we bought a house (step 2). At the time he was a musician and a part time receptionist at a college. His hours were so flexible, he could have been the one to take care of the kids etc. BUT responsibility kicked in, he sought out higher and higher paying jobs (steady income - step 4). I stay at home until all kids are in school (dinner on the table, clean house, wash his clothes, sex, etc - step 5) He sings in a band still (step 6 - hobby/me time). He has it all as far as he is concerned!
He wanted kids FIRST, all the other stuff came after - that probably makes him different to most 
To be honest I think a lot of men are pretty immature in many ways, their partner becomes their mother too, and they try and get away with doing as little at home as possible. I know a couple of guys who stay at work late every night, just because that is easier than going home to help out - immature 
Workplaces (here in Australia) assume that fathers have their partners at home to do all the family stuff. They assume mothers who are their employees probably DON'T NECESSARILY have partners at home to do it, and will need more flexibility and then be less reliable and probably less committed to their jobs (that is the feeling I get). Men just don't have to deal with all that side of it. | |
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ZombieKitten said: OK, I'll put in my few cents worth
My husband, at the early age of 27, was seeking a partner to bear his children. I don't think he had a grand plan as such, but it has certainly fallen into place as if he had one So he met me (step 1 complete) and we bought a house (step 2). At the time he was a musician and a part time receptionist at a college. His hours were so flexible, he could have been the one to take care of the kids etc. BUT responsibility kicked in, he sought out higher and higher paying jobs (steady income - step 4). I stay at home until all kids are in school (dinner on the table, clean house, wash his clothes, sex, etc - step 5) He sings in a band still (step 6 - hobby/me time). He has it all as far as he is concerned!
He wanted kids FIRST, all the other stuff came after - that probably makes him different to most
To be honest I think a lot of men are pretty immature in many ways, their partner becomes their mother too, and they try and get away with doing as little at home as possible. I know a couple of guys who stay at work late every night, just because that is easier than going home to help out - immature
Workplaces (here in Australia) assume that fathers have their partners at home to do all the family stuff. They assume mothers who are their employees probably DON'T NECESSARILY have partners at home to do it, and will need more flexibility and then be less reliable and probably less committed to their jobs (that is the feeling I get). Men just don't have to deal with all that side of it. So do you think it comes from a sense of entitlement on the part of males? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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Very interesting!
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meow85 said: ZombieKitten said: OK, I'll put in my few cents worth
My husband, at the early age of 27, was seeking a partner to bear his children. I don't think he had a grand plan as such, but it has certainly fallen into place as if he had one So he met me (step 1 complete) and we bought a house (step 2). At the time he was a musician and a part time receptionist at a college. His hours were so flexible, he could have been the one to take care of the kids etc. BUT responsibility kicked in, he sought out higher and higher paying jobs (steady income - step 4). I stay at home until all kids are in school (dinner on the table, clean house, wash his clothes, sex, etc - step 5) He sings in a band still (step 6 - hobby/me time). He has it all as far as he is concerned!
He wanted kids FIRST, all the other stuff came after - that probably makes him different to most
To be honest I think a lot of men are pretty immature in many ways, their partner becomes their mother too, and they try and get away with doing as little at home as possible. I know a couple of guys who stay at work late every night, just because that is easier than going home to help out - immature
Workplaces (here in Australia) assume that fathers have their partners at home to do all the family stuff. They assume mothers who are their employees probably DON'T NECESSARILY have partners at home to do it, and will need more flexibility and then be less reliable and probably less committed to their jobs (that is the feeling I get). Men just don't have to deal with all that side of it. So do you think it comes from a sense of entitlement on the part of males? probably, they are raised to expect all those things. It could also be seen as pressure on them to attain those life goals. I know if my in-laws would put a lot of pressure on their son if he didn't - he would not be a "success". I guess there is satisfaction in achieving "the life" but if it doesn't all turn out the way it's meant to be (ie. wife leaves him because she is lonely and dissatisfied) oh boy, major devastation!!! | |
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I can't remember in the last 5 years having ever done the dishes, done any laundry, or ironed anything.  If my wife wants to have ambition to make some money or have hobbies and interests then she's pretty much got to be a superwoman. It's tough, really. She'd get it (she does) from her parents if they ever thought she wasn't doing the housewife bit and taking good care of me. I do cook occasionally, but her folks frown upon her if she even so much as orders delivered food for us as they think she's being lazy. I know that if we lived in the UK it'd be different and I'd be doing more of the things she does. I think she feels quite pressured, but I think she also wants to be the complete housewife (and be settled - the routine and normality of the traditional role being a novelty to her still), so she is trying to be that superwoman.
As for me, I've no ambition. Some might call me a bum or a scrub. I certainly don't make big money and I do have a lot of free time for sunbathing, reading, listening to music, photography etc. but I'm always there for my family when they need me and I am dependable. | |
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NoodleSoup said:
I can't remember in the last 5 years having ever done the dishes, done any laundry, or ironed anything. If my wife wants to have ambition to make some money or have hobbies and interests then she's pretty much got to be a superwoman. It's tough, really. She'd get it (she does) from her parents if they ever thought she wasn't doing the housewife bit and taking good care of me. I do cook occasionally, but her folks frown upon her if she even so much as orders delivered food for us as they think she's being lazy. I know that if we lived in the UK it'd be different and I'd be doing more of the things she does. I think she feels quite pressured, but I think she also wants to be the complete housewife (and be settled - the routine and normality of the traditional role being a novelty to her still), so she is trying to be that superwoman.
As for me, I've no ambition. Some might call me a bum or a scrub. I certainly don't make big money and I do have a lot of free time for sunbathing, reading, listening to music, photography etc. but I'm always there for my family when they need me and I am dependable. But why don't you do dishes, clean, etc? What if your wife wants free time for sunbathing, reading, or anything else? Are you entitled to more leisure than her, and if so, why? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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NoodleSoup said:
I can't remember in the last 5 years having ever done the dishes, done any laundry, or ironed anything. If my wife wants to have ambition to make some money or have hobbies and interests then she's pretty much got to be a superwoman. It's tough, really. She'd get it (she does) from her parents if they ever thought she wasn't doing the housewife bit and taking good care of me. I do cook occasionally, but her folks frown upon her if she even so much as orders delivered food for us as they think she's being lazy. I know that if we lived in the UK it'd be different and I'd be doing more of the things she does. I think she feels quite pressured, but I think she also wants to be the complete housewife (and be settled - the routine and normality of the traditional role being a novelty to her still), so she is trying to be that superwoman.
As for me, I've no ambition. Some might call me a bum or a scrub. I certainly don't make big money and I do have a lot of free time for sunbathing, reading, listening to music, photography etc. but I'm always there for my family when they need me and I am dependable. but that is a whole different culture! if you do any of those things, you are stepping on her role, which she probably would fiercely defend. I have a friend, who I keep telling you about  that like the Thai chicks cause if he stands up to clear the dishes, they get mad at him  | |
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ZombieKitten said: meow85 said: So do you think it comes from a sense of entitlement on the part of males? probably, they are raised to expect all those things. It could also be seen as pressure on them to attain those life goals. I know if my in-laws would put a lot of pressure on their son if he didn't - he would not be a "success". I guess there is satisfaction in achieving "the life" but if it doesn't all turn out the way it's meant to be (ie. wife leaves him because she is lonely and dissatisfied) oh boy, major devastation!!! I guess my question is, if men are expected to be a success, shouldn't the definition of succes include active parenthood if they have kids, and not just being a dad as an aside to their career? Like you said, there are some men who purposely stay late at work to avoid their home life or responsibilities -but could a woman ever get away with that? Why is such different behaviour not just accepted, but expected from men and women? Why are women made to feel guilty for going out to the office instead of being a full-time mommy, but not men? Conversely, why are men who stay at home to look after the kids seen as bums, freeloaders, and failures, but not women who do so? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: ZombieKitten said: probably, they are raised to expect all those things. It could also be seen as pressure on them to attain those life goals. I know if my in-laws would put a lot of pressure on their son if he didn't - he would not be a "success". I guess there is satisfaction in achieving "the life" but if it doesn't all turn out the way it's meant to be (ie. wife leaves him because she is lonely and dissatisfied) oh boy, major devastation!!! I guess my question is, if men are expected to be a success, shouldn't the definition of succes include active parenthood if they have kids, and not just being a dad as an aside to their career? Like you said, there are some men who purposely stay late at work to avoid their home life or responsibilities -but could a woman ever get away with that? Why is such different behaviour not just accepted, but expected from men and women? Why are women made to feel guilty for going out to the office instead of being a full-time mommy, but not men? Conversely, why are men who stay at home to look after the kids seen as bums, freeloaders, and failures, but not women who do so? Because their wives come home and the place is a bombsite and she STILL has to clean it all up and make dinner
(is what my friends say )
active parenthood I think that is a relatively new concept. I think you will see a change in the next couple of generations. Look at sweden, their laws already embrace fathers having equal child-time. The rest of the world takes a while to catch up, I mean the swedes were recycling since the early 80s already! This is only my opinion, but I reckon men here think they have all the time in the world to get themselves a family, and it usually just kind of falls into their lap for most of them, because their wife has it all planned. I don't know a lot of dads who actively pursued getting married/having kids BEFORE they even met their partner. Apart from role of breadwinner, men are allowed to remain immature - I don't know where that comes from? Women who mother them? The media that shows the man in trouble with the missus as "cool"? Women can't get away with most things because they are expected to be responsible and conscientious and nothing could be worse than the label "bad mother" - we bend over backwards to avoid that one. (these are just thoughts, not exactly addressing all your points ) | |
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meow85 said: NoodleSoup said:
I can't remember in the last 5 years having ever done the dishes, done any laundry, or ironed anything. If my wife wants to have ambition to make some money or have hobbies and interests then she's pretty much got to be a superwoman. It's tough, really. She'd get it (she does) from her parents if they ever thought she wasn't doing the housewife bit and taking good care of me. I do cook occasionally, but her folks frown upon her if she even so much as orders delivered food for us as they think she's being lazy. I know that if we lived in the UK it'd be different and I'd be doing more of the things she does. I think she feels quite pressured, but I think she also wants to be the complete housewife (and be settled - the routine and normality of the traditional role being a novelty to her still), so she is trying to be that superwoman.
As for me, I've no ambition. Some might call me a bum or a scrub. I certainly don't make big money and I do have a lot of free time for sunbathing, reading, listening to music, photography etc. but I'm always there for my family when they need me and I am dependable. But why don't you do dishes, clean, etc? What if your wife wants free time for sunbathing, reading, or anything else? Are you entitled to more leisure than her, and if so, why? Well of course, she's entitled to it just as much as I am. It's a bit like Zombie referred to, but in a slightly different way. Mon had to fend for herself from 15 years old in this city and never learned to cook, never did chores for other people and whatnot or learn the housewife bit from seeing her mother do it. Since she settled down there's both the pressure from her parents (and society in general) and the pressure she puts on herself to show she can do it, so it's important to her that she is an excellent housewife and takes care of me. She has something to prove, I guess. It's not like I don't do anything around the house, I should mention, but there are pretty defined roles. I'm not totally comfortable, in theory, with the dynamic, but in reality it does seem to work and Mon does say she's happy to do things this way. I have been taking care of our nephews a lot this last few days while she's been off playing cards, but then she does return intermittently to do washing, cook meals etc. and I would have to say she's spent most of her winnings on buying me beer.
She seems content to have to work very hard in order to fit leisure time in amongst doing lots of housewife stuff, just so long as we divide money up evenly, which is fair enough. Neither of us spend much on ourselves though. | |
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meow85 said: ZombieKitten said: probably, they are raised to expect all those things. It could also be seen as pressure on them to attain those life goals. I know if my in-laws would put a lot of pressure on their son if he didn't - he would not be a "success". I guess there is satisfaction in achieving "the life" but if it doesn't all turn out the way it's meant to be (ie. wife leaves him because she is lonely and dissatisfied) oh boy, major devastation!!! I guess my question is, if men are expected to be a success, shouldn't the definition of succes include active parenthood if they have kids, and not just being a dad as an aside to their career? Like you said, there are some men who purposely stay late at work to avoid their home life or responsibilities -but could a woman ever get away with that? Why is such different behaviour not just accepted, but expected from men and women? Why are women made to feel guilty for going out to the office instead of being a full-time mommy, but not men? Conversely, why are men who stay at home to look after the kids seen as bums, freeloaders, and failures, but not women who do so? All very good points. It's definitely an interesting topic. Got me thinking, anyway. | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said:
I can't remember in the last 5 years having ever done the dishes, done any laundry, or ironed anything. If my wife wants to have ambition to make some money or have hobbies and interests then she's pretty much got to be a superwoman. It's tough, really. She'd get it (she does) from her parents if they ever thought she wasn't doing the housewife bit and taking good care of me. I do cook occasionally, but her folks frown upon her if she even so much as orders delivered food for us as they think she's being lazy. I know that if we lived in the UK it'd be different and I'd be doing more of the things she does. I think she feels quite pressured, but I think she also wants to be the complete housewife (and be settled - the routine and normality of the traditional role being a novelty to her still), so she is trying to be that superwoman.
As for me, I've no ambition. Some might call me a bum or a scrub. I certainly don't make big money and I do have a lot of free time for sunbathing, reading, listening to music, photography etc. but I'm always there for my family when they need me and I am dependable. but that is a whole different culture! if you do any of those things, you are stepping on her role, which she probably would fiercely defend. I have a friend, who I keep telling you about that like the Thai chicks cause if he stands up to clear the dishes, they get mad at him | |
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NoodleSoup said: ZombieKitten said: but that is a whole different culture! if you do any of those things, you are stepping on her role, which she probably would fiercely defend. I have a friend, who I keep telling you about that like the Thai chicks cause if he stands up to clear the dishes, they get mad at him it's a turn on! | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said: it's a turn on!
It's not like all Thai women are like that though. I know Thai housewife types like that, but I also know plenty of girls in relationships with foreigners who spend all their time out buying clothes, mobile phones etc. and once they've hooked a foreigner wouldn't dream of going back to washing clothes and doing all that again. In those cases neither man or woman does any of it as they just have a maid, eat out, use laundry services and all that business. Actually, now that I think of it, you're right though. I do find my wife more attractive when she's working hard doing housework. It could be the novelty of seeing the former wild child I fell in love with become all settled and housewifey. Does that sound bad?
. [Edited 10/6/08 17:18pm] | |
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NoodleSoup said: ZombieKitten said: it's a turn on!
It's not like all Thai women are like that though. I know Thai housewife types like that, but I also know plenty of girls in relationships with foreigners who spend all their time out buying clothes, mobile phones etc. and once they've hooked a foreigner wouldn't dream of going back to washing clothes and doing all that again. In those cases neither man or woman does any of it as they just have a maid, eat out, use laundry services and all that business. Actually, now that I think of it, you're right though. I do find my wife more attractive when she's working hard doing housework. It could be the novelty of seeing the former wild child I fell in love with become all settled and housewifey. Does that sound bad?
that is only as bad as me feeling smug about my rock-star turned suit | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said:
It's not like all Thai women are like that though. I know Thai housewife types like that, but I also know plenty of girls in relationships with foreigners who spend all their time out buying clothes, mobile phones etc. and once they've hooked a foreigner wouldn't dream of going back to washing clothes and doing all that again. In those cases neither man or woman does any of it as they just have a maid, eat out, use laundry services and all that business. Actually, now that I think of it, you're right though. I do find my wife more attractive when she's working hard doing housework. It could be the novelty of seeing the former wild child I fell in love with become all settled and housewifey. Does that sound bad?
that is only as bad as me feeling smug about my rock-star turned suit 
But is something lost in that transformation? | |
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NoodleSoup said: ZombieKitten said: that is only as bad as me feeling smug about my rock-star turned suit
But is something lost in that transformation? yeah, the sex appeal  | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said:
But is something lost in that transformation? yeah, the sex appeal Yeah, my wife never slaps bitches in clubs anymore, never gets taken to the police station, never beats me with coat hangers, never screams in the street, never takes amphetamines and drinks buckets of whiskey and red bull... I think I like the quiet Mon.  I'm probably too old for that stuff anyway. | |
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NoodleSoup said: ZombieKitten said: yeah, the sex appeal Yeah, my wife never slaps bitches in clubs anymore, never gets taken to the police station, never beats me with coat hangers, never screams in the street, never takes amphetamines and drinks buckets of whiskey and red bull... I think I like the quiet Mon. I'm probably too old for that stuff anyway.true, I like us to be asleep before 11pm | |
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meow85 said: Women who have outside jobs and children are always so concerned about their work/life balance. Rightly so, IMO. It can be tough to work enough to pay the bills, yet not so much you end up missing out on your kids.
So how come this doesn't seem to be a big issue for men? Certainly there are individual males who are concerned, but I don't see this on the same grand scale as women. Men are rarely seen to be fussing over whether they can be an executive and a father the same way women do over being an executive and a mother. Many women worry they're not doing their jobs as parents if they go outside of the home to work, often feeling guilty even if the job was taken out of economic necessity. But when's the last time, say, a popular men's magazine ran an article addressing their readers' fears of being inadequate fathers for taking outside jobs? Why is this difference? Is it a leftover from traditional gender roles? And if that's the case, why weren't men concerned in the first place? Since it's more-or-less agreed upon that children need both male and female role models, why don't more men seem to be as concerned as women about balancing parenthood and a job? Take in point Sarah Palin. Nevermind anything else about her or her shaky qualifications, why is she (Or Hilary, or any other female politician) being asked if she's suitable for the job because she's a mother, but men in politics who are fathers are not being questioned? Isn't this just playing into the idea that women can't adequately do both, and reinforcing fears of neglect? Men get married so they don't have to worry about both. Duh! I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think. |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said: Yeah, my wife never slaps bitches in clubs anymore, never gets taken to the police station, never beats me with coat hangers, never screams in the street, never takes amphetamines and drinks buckets of whiskey and red bull... I think I like the quiet Mon. I'm probably too old for that stuff anyway.true, I like us to be asleep before 11pm Yeah, I like to snuggle up and watch 'Midsomer Murders' from 8pm and drift off before it finishes at 10pm. | |
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NoodleSoup said: ZombieKitten said: true, I like us to be asleep before 11pm Yeah, I like to snuggle up and watch 'Midsomer Murders' from 8pm and drift off before it finishes at 10pm. my mum doesn't even watch that!!! | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said: Yeah, I like to snuggle up and watch 'Midsomer Murders' from 8pm and drift off before it finishes at 10pm. my mum doesn't even watch that!!!Your mum's missing out! | |
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ZombieKitten said: NoodleSoup said: Yeah, I like to snuggle up and watch 'Midsomer Murders' from 8pm and drift off before it finishes at 10pm. my mum doesn't even watch that!!!Don't bag Barnaby! | |
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I have to agree! Most Men don't pull their weight around the house. if their wives go on strike, they'll just and go on living in a pig sty. My Friends are exactly like that. They get to watch all their TV programs, go on the internet, spend the day washiing and polishing the car and play video games at will, while their Wives are cooking, cleaning, wrestling with the kids and in some cases doing the painting in their spare time! They always ask me, Did U se Top Gear? My answer is No! I was playing Barbie or Thomas or whatever is my Daughter's thing at the time.
I've always pitched in since I got married and not just the Man Jobs like mowing the lawn! I vac, scrub the toilets, clean the shower, cook & wash the dishes when I can! Yes! My wife is the envy of all our friend's wives!  I just feel the need to do it so I can free up some time for my wife. I don't get to go Racing anymore, there's just no time anymore! Kids!
So I guess Beckham & Myself are the exception! | |
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Amaxx said: I have to agree! Most Men don't pull their weight around the house. if their wives go on strike, they'll just
and go on living in a pig sty. My Friends are exactly like that. They get to watch all their TV programs, go on the internet, spend the day washiing and polishing the car and play video games at will, while their Wives are cooking, cleaning, wrestling with the kids and in some cases doing the painting in their spare time! They always ask me, Did U se Top Gear? My answer is No! I was playing Barbie or Thomas or whatever is my Daughter's thing at the time.
I've always pitched in since I got married and not just the Man Jobs like mowing the lawn! I vac, scrub the toilets, clean the shower, cook & wash the dishes when I can! Yes! My wife is the envy of all our friend's wives! I just feel the need to do it so I can free up some time for my wife. I don't get to go Racing anymore, there's just no time anymore! Kids!
So I guess Beckham & Myself are the exception! hear hear!  | |
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ZombieKitten said: Amaxx said: I have to agree! Most Men don't pull their weight around the house. if their wives go on strike, they'll just
and go on living in a pig sty. My Friends are exactly like that. They get to watch all their TV programs, go on the internet, spend the day washiing and polishing the car and play video games at will, while their Wives are cooking, cleaning, wrestling with the kids and in some cases doing the painting in their spare time! They always ask me, Did U se Top Gear? My answer is No! I was playing Barbie or Thomas or whatever is my Daughter's thing at the time.
I've always pitched in since I got married and not just the Man Jobs like mowing the lawn! I vac, scrub the toilets, clean the shower, cook & wash the dishes when I can! Yes! My wife is the envy of all our friend's wives! I just feel the need to do it so I can free up some time for my wife. I don't get to go Racing anymore, there's just no time anymore! Kids!
So I guess Beckham & Myself are the exception! hear hear! I forgot to add that my reward for my effort is living a Clean, Moral & Chaste lifestyle! | |
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I think we do worry about having it all. we typically don't really worry about it, though, until we (come close to losing or actually) lose part of that puzzle. | |
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SUPRMAN said: meow85 said: Women who have outside jobs and children are always so concerned about their work/life balance. Rightly so, IMO. It can be tough to work enough to pay the bills, yet not so much you end up missing out on your kids.
So how come this doesn't seem to be a big issue for men? Certainly there are individual males who are concerned, but I don't see this on the same grand scale as women. Men are rarely seen to be fussing over whether they can be an executive and a father the same way women do over being an executive and a mother. Many women worry they're not doing their jobs as parents if they go outside of the home to work, often feeling guilty even if the job was taken out of economic necessity. But when's the last time, say, a popular men's magazine ran an article addressing their readers' fears of being inadequate fathers for taking outside jobs? Why is this difference? Is it a leftover from traditional gender roles? And if that's the case, why weren't men concerned in the first place? Since it's more-or-less agreed upon that children need both male and female role models, why don't more men seem to be as concerned as women about balancing parenthood and a job? Take in point Sarah Palin. Nevermind anything else about her or her shaky qualifications, why is she (Or Hilary, or any other female politician) being asked if she's suitable for the job because she's a mother, but men in politics who are fathers are not being questioned? Isn't this just playing into the idea that women can't adequately do both, and reinforcing fears of neglect? Men get married so they don't have to worry about both. Duh! Then why do women get married? To slave double duty for a career and a family, then get guilted out because of it? "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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