I don't get it at all...

"You're lonely and depressed you need a thug in your life." - 2pac.

What is the fascination with this "thug" shit? What is meant by "thug" today? Maybe I am not getting this, but I don't think that being a thug is a good thing... in fact, I think that it is fucking reprehensible.

Am I missing something here? Why is being a thug considered a good thing by some?

DEFINITIONS OF THUG FOLLOW:

thug

n : an aggressive young criminal [syn: hood, hoodlum, goon, punk, tough, toughie]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

---

thug

\Thug\, n. An assassin; a ruffian; a rough. ``Thugs and midnight rounders.'' --The Century.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

---

thug ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thg)
n.

A cutthroat or ruffian; a hoodlum.

also Thug One of a band of professional assassins formerly active in northern India who worshiped Kali and offered their victims to her.

[Hindi hag, perhaps from Sanskrit sthaga, a cheat, from sthagati, sthagayati, he conceals. See (s)teg- in Indo-European Roots.]

thugger·y n.
thuggish adj.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Wow...
Very good points on this thread. I agree with those who say that the whole 'rough guy' status (notice I'm not saying 'image' yet) started in the lower-income and poor areas of the country. In the United States, those areas have historically been populated by immigrants and other ethnic minorities.
When some people are pressured to make the choice between committing a crime and feeding/housing their families, in my opinion, the weaker of character choose crime.
Both my father's and mother's families came to this country during the Great Depression (I was a 'change of life' baby so my parents are most likely older than most of yours) both of my grandfathers died when my parents were young and both of my grandmothers spoke very broken English. My Italian grandmother had 10 kids to raise and my Hungarian grandmother had 4 kids to raise. NONE of my uncles or aunts and neither of my parents resorted to crime to make up for what they were missing. In fact, the worst thing my father and his brothers did was take potatoes from the neighbors garden and wait for lumps of coal to fall off of the passing train cars so that they could heat their house.
In my opinion, the whole 'Thug' thing is a cop out. There ARE sooo many opportunites for EVERY kind of person to get help -- scholarships, grants, finanical aid, food stamps, FIA, WIC, etc, etc, etc -- that I cannot buy the fact that people are FORCED to go out killing and robbing and raping for ANY reason.
I hate to think that this country is going to hell in a handbasket, but when this kind of hell is commercialized...it makes me wonder and fear for our kids.
I think what needs to be examined here is the reasons that people are CHOOSING to do this rather than looking at their alternatives.
Is it because of a lack of good parenting? If so, should the government/social services make more of an effort to aid people who are having parenting problems?
Is it because of the evils of Capitalism? In this country today, the self-esteem of many depends upon what they are wearing or their 'look' -- if you take that to the extreme and say that ONLY this expensive pair of athletic shoes or ONLY this expensive leather jacket will make me feel good about myself...could it be that our economic system is telling us that we need to BUY our self-esteem rather than earn and grow it?
I could go on and on...
Any more ideas?
[This message was edited Tue Nov 19 8:21:19 PST 2002 by applekisses]

IceNine said:

Although identified with the "Thugh Life" Tupac is nowhere near the root of American culture's fascination with criminals. The outlaw has a mythology and literature that goes as far back as the frontiersmen. The iconization of the "cowboy" paralleled that of the "badman."

The Western outlaw combined with the mafia don and you have what most are celebratin as the "thug life." These are folks RAISED on "Scarface" and "The Godfather," and that's their idea of "thug." Is it any surprise that "The Sopranos" is one of the most highly rated programs in television at the moment?

The tone of this discussion seems to want to put hip hop at the center of the discussion on thug life. Before you go scapegoating hip hop culture, take a look at the larger culture.

NuPwrSoul said:

NuPwrSoul is quite eloquint in the was he exsplains THANGS
but now, let's put it in BAD TERMS...
Ice, i love you like a play cousin, however i'm begining to see a certain side to you that i thought i covered.
you being the brite, intelegent, educated type of person you are fails to see the clear picture on many subjects.
THUG LIFE aint nothin new, JAMES CAGNEY, HUMPHRY BOGART
THE BOWERY BOYS, and many others were the THUGS that MY GENERATION looked to, to seek out ways to (not suvive)
LIVE as those who thumbed their noses at us for our
being 'financially challenged'
we all had the opportunity to get an education and excell
like anyone else... TRUE. but the final outcome to that would be being an educated factory worker.
when you pullin down 'G's a week can't nobody tell you
it's better to stay in school.
as for RIDE or DIE, this is a term that was bought about
during the PANTHER MOVEMENT which is probibly another of the things that you would find fault with.
let me clairify, the PANTHER MOVEMENT OF THE 60s.
anyway THUG LIFE, just like RAP in general is becomming a widely excepted way of life because it was jammed down
our throats for DECADES. and in a goverment where DRUGS
are a major part of of the financial structure, who did you think would be put on the front lines...
SHIT JUST BACK FIRED!!!

00769BAD said:

Your intelligence is showing again, BAD. You are right, of
course. It is unfortunate that things are as they are...
but not totally unexpected. Materialism has become a god to
the world and money and glitter tend to ensnare the young.

But in answer to Ice's question, the facination comes as a
result of the glamorization of said "thug life" by the
corporate leaders of the entertainment world. The same
instinct that makes people thrill-seekers would promote
facination with this life-style. The entertainment giants
make huge profits selling this "product", while many who
buy it are led to an early grave.

Damn IceNine, recent rants of yours range from tirades against "Hip-hop", "Baggy clothing", "Ebonics" etc. Is there an agenda tied in with your concerns?

Essence said:

Yep... my agenda is this:

I want to know what is happening with society. Why are we seemingly purposely embracing criminality, illiteracy and things of that nature. This goes across race, so I don't want anyone accusing me of being racist because I ask these questions.

I see these things and I wonder why they exist...

IceNine said:

I wouldn't say "racist", it's just your current concerns and queries seem firmly fixed on certain areas of scoiety right now. Is it really all that puzzling to you?

I thought of another way to present my case:

The word "thug" is used to describe a criminal... usually a violent criminal. I believe that the mass-acceptance of the term "thug" and the use of "thug life" as a description of a desirable life is bad for society and I don't condone it. Should children be taught that it is not only okay to be a "thug," but that it is also a desirable way to live your life?

I believe that we should present a more positive message. Maybe I am a total square, as I said before, but I believe that children are very important and the things that they are being taught by society are damaging.

This is only my opinion, but I believe that we should be teaching the children exactly how WRONG it is to be a thug or to live the "thug life" instead of glorifying it. Wouldn't it be better to have former "thugs" tell children exactly how wrong that lifestyle is?

You can tell me if I am terribly wrong here if you wish.

Essence said:

Yes, it is VERY puzzling to me... I am also puzzled by the fucking Jerry Springer/WWF white culture... I don't get that shit at all! I will never understand it, so I guess I need to stop worrying about it...

IceNine said:

In a perfect world the term "Thug" wouldn't exist. Poverty and lack of opportunity breeds crime and if life is a continuous struggle a quick term glamourous fix could seem an attractive option.

It's all about walking in a man's shoes before judging too harshly. A little tolerance and understanding in why society's dynamics are this way...

IceNine said:

my question to you then would be WHUT IS GOOD FOR SOCIETY
and how can it be implamented in a fassion that will
apeal to the masses???
THIS IS A RETOICAL QUESTION,
because if it was that easy, it would have been done already.
LET ME CLARIFY THAT!!!
MALCOM said we live in a society that is capable of manufactering cars that would last for twenty years
afordable to anyone (of course i'm parafrazing)
but it is true.
this goverment aint lookin to HEAL IT'S WOUNDED
there are more PRISONS bein built than SCHOOLS... WHY???
why is it so hard to see that the goverment thrives
on all you see as wrong... why is that???
when it comes to the drug trade, who do you think allowed
it in the first place. WARS NEED MONEY... SECRET WARS NEED
DRUG MONEY...
COVERT OPs and all that shit.
BAGGY CLOTHES HIDE DRUGS AND GUNS. i don't sag, and think it's rediculous, but i fully understand the need to hide some shit.
theses were not problems while they were contained in the BLACK COMMUNITY, again i tell you SHIT JUST BACKFIRED.
this also goes back to the usage of the NIGGA as a term of affection.
when it was a hurtful word (the word ni**er) there was never the outrage at it's being used, but we changed it to something that We could identify with and it BECAME a
BAD THANG...
listen, all the shit that was done in the dark, is now commin to lite.
the past has caught up, and it's claiming the innocent
victims of the 'BURBS... whowouldathunkit...

The person best to ask is the white kid who doesn't have any reason to be a thug.Most people become thugs out of a friendship or bond with their neighborhood.They usually are poor and do crime because they cannot get a job and see it as the only way to get decent money.Prince said it best "Who's to blame when he's got no place to go and all he's got is the sense to know that a life of crime will help him BEAT YOU IN THE RACE".This is how it was in th past.Now the media has glamorized it and made it COOL.Now everybody wants to be a thug.Kids have always had a fascination with gangsters and thugs because of how they are portrayed.Also you can't judge a person by their clothes now.The people in the media and government are the biggest thugs to me.I have alot of friends who look "thuggish" and do more charity work than most will do in a lifetime.They just like the style.And NO! i am not a thug,i have never been to jail for anything before anyone asks.I have had a steady job since i was 18.And Ice i remember you playing the part of a gangster on here

Record companies should bring it 2 a halt, because art is not imatating life anymore,life is imatating art in a very sick way. Making blacks look as if we all are thugs and cant play instruments, and thats not the deal.

applekisses said:

Even though I dont fully agree on certain aspects,can you point me to the building where they are selling ways to break it down like that?
[This message was edited Tue Nov 19 10:16:11 PST 2002 by rdhull]

Even though I dont fully agree on certain aspects,can you point me to the building where they are selling ways to break it down like that?
[This message was edited Tue Nov 19 10:16:11 PST 2002 by rdhull]

Um...is this a compliment...? If so, thanks
What is it that you don't fully agree with? I'd love to open that to discussion. How do you feel about it?

Better to use one's Mind instead of One's fists . It's Stupid all the Fighting and Strife. Look what is Happening with Gangs and look what happened with Tupac and the other Rappers.

. I'd rather be a Feminine lady any day.

applekisses said:

Yes it is a compliment...some things I dont agree with include the immigrant issue... Folks in America at the time in the past (and not so distant past) were more willing to accept and work along any immigrant coming to the staes over a black person who was already living in the states. That right there changes everything. I dont want to go into a long drawn out discussion about that but thats one thing I found flawed in your assessment. But in general you have the right idea about character etc...imo.

edith
[This message was edited Tue Nov 19 12:08:58 PST 2002 by rdhull]

I do agree with you in the way that some immigrants may have been more accepted by society than some black folks who were already living in the US. My mother (who is Italian) went to school in the US in the 1940s with black kids when schools were still segregated. So, I don't think that her family was treated TOO differently.
But, still, does that mean that one should resort to crime, etc?