I for one Love Animals. I used to care for stray cats and their litters in my backyard. Mean Neighbors put an end to it and even Hurt the Cats with B.B. Guns. However, I do believe it is not a sin to Eat Meat,Wear Leather or Wear Fur. It seems it is not POLITICALLY CORRECT. However shouldn't People Choose and have the Right to do as they PLEASE? I think it's Hypocritical and Abusive how Animal Rights People get Violent about Their Causes by Throwing Paint,Damaging Stores Merchandise what have you. Can't they just put out Literature and Educate People Instead of becoming Criminal and Abusive with their Causes? I think more People would Listen to them if they weren't so Radical.

All I know is when that lady w/ the long skirt got YANKED off the Victoria's Secret runway, it's was FUNNY AS HELL!! She looked like a ragdoll

It was pretty dumb to get all in the model's face, screaming w/ a sign. But they got the pub they were looking for so I guess they're happy...

They interfered with Giselle Bundchen on the Runway. They looked Stupid and Giselle looked at them unaffected.

CalhounSq said:

The problem is that doing things like that only hurts your cause and it makes the public believe that you are a bunch of fanatical idiots. I know that they want attention, but that kind of attention does not help... in my opinion.

This country is full of hypocrites. People like this are so full of themselves their stupidity supersedes intelligent thought. Common sense should tell them where to draw the line, but of course, these people do not have common sense, hence their illogical acts. Don't try to understand people like this Natasha, they're too far gone and too far from the line between sane and insane.



.

IceNine said:

I agree, not to mention it's just TACKY as all hell. But these kinds of groups keep pulling these stunts year after year, so I guess for them the publicity & unabashed delivery of their message is more important than being deemed rabid/fanatical. I dunno...

Natasha said:

I believe strongly in animal rights, though I don't get violent over it. I think it's really unfortunate when the lunatic fringe makes the rest of us look bad. I basically treat all animals (including my fellow man) with the same amount of respect. I apply the "do unto others as you would have them blah blah..." philosophy to all living creatures. I wouldn't want to get shot and carved up and eaten, so I don't eat meat. I don't drink milk or eat eggs, either. To me killing an animal is no lesser or greater a crime than killing a human.

End.
[This message was edited Wed Nov 20 4:47:54 PST 2002 by PeterJL121]

so if a dog bites me, i can kill it. hmmm interesting PeterJL121...

Rhondab said:

Nooo you can bite it back apparently

All I know is I feed my kitty well.

<---

2the9s said:

That you do!

Rhondab said:

No... if a dog bites you, then turn the other cheek...

End.
[This message was edited Wed Nov 20 4:48:46 PST 2002 by PeterJL121]

People this crazy do more harm to their cause than good...people focus on the irrational behavior rather than the message

People like that upset me, I feel like their point of view is not worth listening to. However, if you want to speak rationally and respectfully to me and listen to my opinion, then we can talk. But if someone wants to shred up my leather jacket the gloves come off!

i'll pay one of those FREAKS to throw
some shit on Me or Mine.
whutever the outcome, i'll beat it in court.

IceNine said:

Yeaaahh. . .I have mixed feelings. On one hand, people don't want to think about these issues and won't seek out the info themselves, so when PETA or somebody like that makes a bunch of noise, I feel like people might at least take a moment to think.

I support some economic destruction. . .throwing paint at fur shows and stuff (which is NOT the same as throwing paint on random people on the street--that might be her granny's prized fur that she saved her whole life for, and ruining it will only make her hate you), putting stickers on veal in supermarkets, that kind of thing. But threats, arson, things that make people afraid for their saftey. . .NOT ok. Obviously.

On the other hand, I was personally convinced of the ethical wrongness of our use of animals via Peter Singer giving solid, rational arguments for why it's not ok, and not consistent with my own ethics to cause suffering to innocents. That is the route that I prefer to take; educate people about the nastiness of modern agriculture, and point out the inconsistency in their own beliefs if they support it.

But listen, I would urge anybody to consider the following when they encounter 'those damn crazy animal rights activists': we have no selfish motive here. We are not gonna get a payoff from the cows after we emancipate them! There is no political gain to be had in holding the positions we do! We are just trying to make you see that what you are doing is brutal, and it is wrong, and we would rather convince you of that via discussion, but if you refuse to listen we might just jump up and down and scream. Because there are lives being made miserable every day by your behavior.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

Natasha said:

No. People should not have the right do do as they please in every single situation, particularly if it is causing somebody else suffering.

This is why we have laws against murder, rape, child abuse, etc.

We live in a society where we do not need to use animals to survive. Even if we did, we would not be justified in factory farming them; they still deserve compassionate treatment. When you buy 'animal products' from modern farms, you support that brutality, and there is no excuse for that.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

Did anyone else read the amazing article "The Unnatural Idea of Animal Rights" by Michael Pollan in last Sunday's (Nov 10, 2002) New York Times Magazine?

It's an amazing piece of journalism. Everyone who eats meat should read the article.

PeterJL121 said:

So Peter, bugs aren't worthy of life. WOW...calling the Ethical Treatment of Insects!!!

TheMax said:

It is an excellent article. His summary of the typical Singerian arguments is really good. There are a couple of points at which we differ, though:


"But surely a species can have interests -- in its survival, say -- just as a nation or community or a corporation can."

No. A nation or community is made up of individuals capable of caring about the continuation of the nation or community. Animals don't care if their species survive. I maintain that it would be better to have a world with no pigs than to have the world we have where they are treated so brutally.


"The farmer would point out that even vegans have a ''serious clash of interests'' with other animals. The grain that the vegan eats is harvested with a combine that shreds field mice, while the farmer's tractor crushes woodchucks in their burrows, and his pesticides drop songbirds from the sky. "

Living without killing anybody else isn't possible. Vegans don't really aspire to that. They aim to live while minimizing their contribution to the suffering of others. As do most people. It's just that vegans include nonhuman animals in the 'others' who matter. The field mouse who dies in the combine. . .well, I feel bad for him, but I don't think his suffering compares to the cow who lives his entire life in a factory farm.


(Summary paragraph of the article):
"The industrialization -- and dehumanization -- of American animal farming is a relatively new, evitable and local phenomenon: no other country raises and slaughters its food animals quite as intensively or as brutally as we do. Were the walls of our meat industry to become transparent, literally or even figuratively, we would not long continue to do it this way. Tail-docking and sow crates and beak-clipping would disappear overnight, and the days of slaughtering 400 head of cattle an hour would come to an end. For who could stand the sight? Yes, meat would get more expensive. We'd probably eat less of it, too, but maybe when we did eat animals, we'd eat them with the consciousness, ceremony and respect they deserve."

Truly humane animal farming is a possible alternative to veganism. Are you willing to visit the farms you get your animal products from periodically and make sure you are comfortable with the way the critters are being treated--the way you are PAYING for them to be treated? Fine. I will admire your willingness to stop supporting factory farming.

Truly humane farms are few and far between currently, and not very commercially viable, but if that changes, yeay. Would I eat animals from those farms? Probably not, but then I feel it is a more sentimental choice on my part, and I'll feel less compelled to convince you to share that sentiment.


It is very easy to get bogged down in these details, though they are important. But here is the simple, not-11-pages-long version:

Do you know what factory farms are like? No? Then go find out. Now, do you have a good justification for making those living, feeling individuals suffer through lives that horrible?

Most people who seriously consider that question find themselves compelled to become a vegan, or must force themselves to ignore the contradictions of their own ethics and try to forget the suffering that their dollars buy.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

By the way, the HOLY BIBLE says that animals are here for people to use as they will... they were slaughtered and tortured in the bible, so why not now in our "christian" society?

You see what I'm saying? The fucking bible says that we should kill and eat the "clean" animals...

How are you going to convince rabid christians that the bible is wrong?

IceNine said:

I don't spend to much time on the rabid xtians.

However, I guess I'd have to ask them to convince me that the bible is actually the truth, ie. there is a god and he wrote/inspired/whatever the bible. Only when they've done that can they get away with using the bible to justify acts of brutality.

For anyone who uses their religion to justify their purchase of 'animal products', my question is this: do you know what factory farms are like? No? Go find out. Now, does your God think that's ok? If so, I'm glad he's your God and not mine.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

Agree with all the sentiments raised by Tackam. Peter's too, until he tries to justify killing bugs. :p

Activist: "do you know how many poor animals had to die to make that coat?"

Diva: "do you know how many rich animals I had to fuck to get this coat?!"

- Blake Edwards' Switch




Sorry, I love that movie...





cut it up...
[This message was edited Tue Nov 19 4:33:37 PST 2002 by CalhounSq]

How did this turn into a christian bashing topic? I just want Peter to justify killing poor honest bubble bees...

Rhondab said:

What are you talking about?

End.
[This message was edited Wed Nov 20 4:50:18 PST 2002 by PeterJL121]

Rhondab said:

Who has bashed x-tians on this topic?

I have not seen anyone bash an x-tian on this topic yet. Please provide an example.

Nope, no xtian bashing that I can see.

Doves,
Mel!ssa

Oh, and hey, I'll justify killing bees for ya (though I prefer not to do so myself):

There is no evidence that they are capable of anything like suffering. If they are bothering you, and you don't personally value honeybee life, please feel free to kill them.

*rubber stamp of approval from Org Ethics Board*

Doves,
Mel!ssa

tackam said:

okay...this i just dont get..the minute you get into another humans face (anywhere...) is just wrong...to even attempt to justify this activity is beyond me...care to elaborate? im all ears...