I went to lunch with my son at his school today... they let parents go to lunch with their kids for a sort of special Thanksgiving event for the kids. We had fun... he was SO glad to have me there and I was proud to be able to be there with him.

I was glad to see that some parents came, but I noticed something that made me wonder how easy it is for kids to learn proper English in school. Kids learn a LOT from their parents and they learn TONS of it before they are old enough to get into Kindergarten.

Here are some examples of phrases that I heard parents say today at my son's school:

"They be goin' to class."
"They got they shoes off."
"They is gonna be late."
"He stupid."
"How they is gonna do that?"
"The line long up there."
"Is they serving dessert?"
"There be ice cream over there."
"They be havin' lunch."
"He are gonna be busy."

There were more, but I forgot them by the time I got home...

My question is this:

Do you think that hearing this at home all the time makes it very difficult for children to learn to use proper English?

EDIT: Changed the title (Thanks, Lavish!)
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 10:17:25 PST 2002 by IceNine]

Americans don't use 'proper' English anyway, it's a bastardized version.

Thecherryloon said:

The rules of the language are the same and these rules are what hold the language together. We spell words differently ("color" vs. "colour") but the basic rules of English usage are the same, therefore Americans use proper English.

I would have to adjust your question a bit, in relation to your examples...perhaps you should be asking...

Is school harder for children with parents who do not speak proper American English?

Both of my parents had to quit school before the age of 13. My father retained the ability to read, write, and other things like math. He was quite smart, yet not "educated"

My mother could not read...but could write her name.

My parents would therefore be considered "uneducated" right? I did not have a harder time in school because of this...BUT to agree with your examples of ways of talking - Yes, it did make school harder. Here is my theory.

Practice definately improves skill. I would go to school (I grew up in Hawaii) and although the teachers held Masters and Doctrates...almost all of them spoke "pigeon english" (everyone around me too) which is an adaptation of the American English language. This, to me, made learning difficult because the only time I ever heard "English" was when I turned on the television, or if I visited California to visit my brother.

The speech used by most born and raised in Hawaii, is the result of a melting pot of races who migrated from all parts of the globe, which produced an almost indiscernible "accent" or language...

I have gone the furthest in college of the 8 children they had, but I have to say that everyone learns what they want to in the end...regardless of our parents.



http://extreme-hawaii.com/pidgin/vocab/

added the link to a sample (fun site) of Hawaiian pigeon english...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 9:59:26 PST 2002 by LaVisHh]

IceNine said:

of course, i know what you mean.Are these phrases a regional thing though? we have many different accents and sayings in the UK.I can go places in England and not have a clue what people are talking about.I presume you have the same thing in the States.

IceNine said:

i is read this den i is wonderin 'wuts yo point???'
i is happen to bes a graduate of a most prisstigious
ivys league institutions, where i is graduated wit dee tops honors, SUMTIN CUM MORE DAN ONCE.
an yea is is git most of my learnin befo i is go tos school
as is not had no parentals to speaks of.
i is speaks as propers as is ennybodys else.
if you is got prollums wit dis, you is just nots
applying youself to da fullest of yo capabilitys.
and if da teachers is has not done da thing tos
overcomes deese tings den day is not doin dere jobs.

LaVisHh said:

You make a good point... uneducated people are quite capable of proper speech and there are many educated people who speak improperly. Hmmm... I need to re-word that...

Your examples were perfect.

Thank you!

IceNine said:

You're welcome...it sorta hit on my childhood.

Sometimes I talk like that myself...

Seriously, I did not finish my degree and am of normal intelligence. Everthing I have learned in IT is because my company provided the schooling I needed to succeed.

Anywho, I took in my nephew when he was 16, he was illiterate and carrying an F average. With alot of work, patience and push, I can say after a year with me he made honor roll at his school.

Now he is married and gone...thank goodness.

With alot of love you can teach anything...

Thecherryloon said:

We certainly have regional vernaculars and such, but the phrases that I noticed seemed to be simple illiteracy to me.

I have heard these kinds of phrases before, but never from educated people... for instance, I never once heard phrases such as those at the university.

I just feel that the children will suffer from this and I wish that people could see the importance of a good education. I am not saying that they aren't great parents. I am so very glad that they care enough about their children to do things like going to school functions and being active in their kids' lives, so don't get me wrong here... I really do believe that these were nice people who love their kids.

*the above part was for anyone who might erroneously believe that I was saying that the parents were bad people because of their poor English skills.*

IceNine said:

Well, Ice, I believe these people DO see the importance of a good education. That's why they are at the school supporting their kids. They want for their children what they, most likely, COULD NOT HAVE. There is a difference between not wanting something and not being able to get it.
My mother had to quit school at 14 to go to work scrubbing floors. Her father was killed and my immigrant grandmother had 10 kids to feed.
My father had to quit high school before graduating because he was drafted into the US Army.
Was it more difficult for my five siblings and I to get our college degrees? Yes. It was. We had to learn things on our own -- like how to schedule in homework while working full-time, etc -- that our parents couldn't teach us.
But, did we suffer? No.
We are all successful and exceeded what our parents were able to achieve. THAT is a legacy that all parents should give to their children. Perhaps that's what the parents at your son's school are doing. Don't feel sorry for them. Applaud that they are making the effort and the difference in their children's lives
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 10:34:03 PST 2002 by applekisses]

applekisses said:

Another fine point!

Maybe that is the case... maybe so. That is why I said that I think that they are probably loving, caring and good parents... I think that they want their children to learn...

"I see your true colors shining through"
I love cyndie lauper...don't you?

IceNine said:

Oh, hon, that's obvious if they are there supporting their kids. But, remember, that you NEVER know what circumstances others go through that lead them to their positions in life. It's a very good possibility that those people couldn't continue their educations rather than just didn't.
You've got middle-class blinders on...

applekisses said:

Unfortunately, I had what one would call a privileged upbringing...

...should one feel bad for being educated?



I am a cad.

Shorty said:

True colors???

I like education and I am asking a valid question and learning from answers... do you find something wrong with that? I have ALWAYS professed my affinity for education and intellect, therefore it is ignorant to say "I see your true colors shining through" about yet another topic about my love of education and my concern with the illiteracy in America. Your statement was neither logical nor intelligent, as I have never hidden my love of knowledge.

If you would drop your silly and baseless condescension for a moment, you would see that I have not said anything bad about anyone, nor have I cast any aspersions at anyone. What I have done is asked a question and the question is perfectly valid.

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 10:51:59 PST 2002 by IceNine]

IceNine said:

Well, whether you know it or not, you wear your upbringing like a badge.
No, of course one shouldn't feel bad for being formally educatated. However, one SHOULD feel bad for being a snob. Not that I believe that you were being one here today. I don't believe that -- you are my friend.
It's just that I believe that those who are raised in economically privileged families lack many life experiences that eventually create what most call common sense (and I am talking here about the truest form of that phrase.)
And, that, to me is very sad. Those without common sense do suffer because they have difficulty relating to most people -- the masses, if you will. That can cause great suffering. Social exclusion -- whether involuntary or otherwise -- can cause great unhappiness.
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 10:55:12 PST 2002 by applekisses]

Indeed...I've known a number of "educated" folks who could speak and read really well and came from money, but were extremely ignorant about, and uninterested in, important issues.

Language buys you a certain amount of credibility, especially during those first impressions...but in the end, character trumps all.

teller said:

Apples I just want to eat your avatar!

applekisses said:

I certainly have a VERY hard time relating with many people and I will not deny that... I believe that you will find (as you mentioned) that I am not a snob at all, but I do value an education and intellect... at the same time, I feel quite distanced from most people and that is a fact. I acknowledge that I am an oddball and that I am not like the average person... I place more value on intellectual things than most people and my love of knowledge and education renders me unable to appreciate things such as rap music, public television or various other things that I find disheartening.

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that it is necessarily bad, it just means that it is not pleasing to me.

CarrieLee said:

CRUNCH!
Just make sure you eat around the lip marks...I don't know what Teller used to make them

CarrieLee said:

And yours is STILL flicking me off!!! :LOL:

teller said:

Very true...

Speaking of important issues... I personally believe that a good education is EXTRAORDINARILY important... this is just my opinion.

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 11:04:53 PST 2002 by IceNine]

IceNine said:

Oh, Ice, I know that. You're far from being a snob. I'm actually so happy that we've been able to discuss these things today. Your thirst for knowledge is one of the most wonderful things about you, in my opinion. You and I have come from such different backgrounds...but, yet, here we are (in cyberspace of all things) sharing our experiences and coming to understandings. Learning about the world from each other's experiences. I don't think the human experience can be more...well...human
And, without sounding too sappy, the human experience can be a beautiful thing


(Azure...I ain't mackin' on yo man...for the record... )

IceNine said:

Unquestionably. The more you know, the more effective you are, period.

Back to topic, I've learned a thing or two from people with experiences beyond my own, who couldn't speak as properly as all that.

What I really can't stand are highly literate people who are insecure, and as a result sprinkle in a lot of extra words and phrases when in fact they could just as easily get to the point! Mostly thinking of TV commentators...(especially the dreaded phrase, "quite frankly" GOD I HATE THAT)

teller said:

I'll get rid of it when I find something better! And so far I haven't...besides that naked one of Tommy...

applekisses said:

What you have said is 455% right!

This is EXACTLY what I am trying to do... I want to hear other opinions and ideas on issues or questions... this is the only way to really learn.

This is what people like Shorty will never understand when she makes ignorant comments about "true colors" and such. I am NOT trying to say that anyone is better than anyone else, nor am I calling anyone names, etc.

I want to understand other people better and the only way to do that is to talk to them... unless I am mistaken.

As you mention, you came from a very different background yet you are very intelligent and understanding...

This made me think of something else... your parents must have been very good people. Parents are the most important element in a child's life... the socio-economic background is part of it, but the parents are the most important piece of the puzzle.

I have know rich people who were TOTALLY ignorant and I have known poor people who were absolutely brilliant.

My grandfather dropped out of school when he was in junior high-school, yet he started his own businesses and became a multi-millionaire... he was not educated in universities, but he was very smart... so I cannot say that he would have been better off with a university education. He did, however, speak proper English.

Maybe it is just my personal preference and being educated is not that great... who can say.

teller said:

Yeah, but can you imagine what our world would be like if we had more 'salt of the earth' types who have loads of common knowledge and a wealth of experience, but ALSO have a formal education?
WOW...those who can relate on very intimate levels with their fellow humans, but also have extensive formal education...
that would result in world leaders who actually CARE about and can relate to the people they serve...
doctors who can heal the body and the soul as well as quiet the mind...
the great possiblities are endless...

IceNine said:[quote]

What you have said is 455% right!



This is EXACTLY what I am trying to do... I want to hear other opinions and ideas on issues or questions... this is the only way to really learn.

And you are 657 percent right!

This is what people like Shorty will never understand when she makes ignorant comments about "true colors" and such. I am NOT trying to say that anyone is better than anyone else, nor am I calling anyone names, etc.

Well, now, maybe she's learning too...just like us...sometimes, and I know I've done this, when something hits you a little 'too close to home' it's easy to become defensive and want to hurt someone. Maybe that's what happened here. Don't let it hurt your feelings.

I want to understand other people better and the only way to do that is to talk to them... unless I am mistaken.

Nope. You've got it.

As you mention, you came from a very different background yet you are very intelligent and understanding...

surprise! (just kidding)

This made me think of something else... your parents must have been very good people. Parents are the most important element in a child's life... the socio-economic background is part of it, but the parents are the most important piece of the puzzle.

Yes. My parents were the best. I do wish my dad could be here still. Sometimes I still need his guidance.

I have know rich people who were TOTALLY ignorant and I have known poor people who were absolutely brilliant.

My grandfather dropped out of school when he was in junior high-school, yet he started his own businesses and became a multi-millionaire... he was not educated in universities, but he was very smart... so I cannot say that he would have been better off with a university education. He did, however, speak proper English.

Well...there's a great example right there in your own family Was your grandfather an immigrant or was English his first language?