meow85 said:

Not everyone uses those kits! Just because that's all YOU see when you go to the art supply store doesn't mean everyone uses them. If your real beef is with the kits then you should change your thread title to "GOD DAMN IT, SCRAPBOOKING KITS ARE NOT ART!". My local art supply store has about 6 aisles dedicated to scrapbooking. The kits take up about half of one aisle. Maybe it's different in Canada.

MoniGram said:

Yeah, I have. It's kinda fun. It's a great way to spend time. But it's not art. It felt like playing connect-the-dots.

Being influenced by another's ideas is one thing -pasting together bits and pieces someone already made and calling it your own expression is another. Raphael took Da Vinci's ideas and stretched and re-shaped and expanded on them, making them his own. Someone making a scrapbook is akin to giving the Mona Lisa a brown dress instead of black. It's still Da Vinci's work, not yours.

That said, there are a lot of famous artists I wouldn't necessarily consider art either, and I'm big fans. Damien Hurst? Interesting and ballsy as all hell, but it's nothing a high school science teacher couldn't do. Warhol? Vapid consumerism for the sake of vapid consumerism. Maybe it has a deep message, maybe not. Not art though. Jackson Pollock? Your average toddler could do the same, given a big enough canvas. I think these people's work is great, but I'd hesitate to call any of it art. Something isn't bad because it's not art, which is what I've said from the beginning. But you have to call things what they are. I know all art is entirely subjective, and I'm entitled to my subjective opinion that scrapbooking is not art, just as you folk are entitled to think it is.

JuliePurplehead said:

What, exactly, is in these aisles and aisles of scrapbooking material that's not premade? Sheets of paper? Glue sticks?

meow85 said:

Now that you have managed to insult many orgers, and children, but now you look down upon other artists. You are a real tool aren't you? So...if you know so much, and if you are an "artist", what makes your work better then the artists you have mentioned? It's a shame that you are such a closed minded person, I feel sorry for you. It's a shame that you can't see beauty or art in everything, but only in what you think is "ART"!!

I also hope you don't have kids! Because it would be really sad when this child comes to you, and says..look what I made and you learn that everyone in he or she's class made the same thing. You will probably look at this child and say..sorry it's not art!!! And break this child's heart!!!

MoniGram said:

The only people I insulted are those that think too highly of themselves in the first place. Did I say anywhere what I do is better? No. Please try not to insert words into my mouth. I'm willing to bet there are people who would look at what I do and refuse to call it art, either. And unlike you, I have the humility to accept that and not throw tantrums over another person's opinion.

When I do have kids, I plan on teaching them to do what they want artistically. Never settle for just doing as you're told to, especially when it comes to art. Ask the teacher why you have to make a turkey in the first place. Ask why you have to commemorate a holiday. Ask why everyone has to do the same thing. Then turn around and do what you want to do. Art is about what's inside yourself, not about following instructions.

Byron said:

But how? Where is the self-expression? I don't see it. Simply choosing a different colour from a pre-made design is not being creative. All it is is "Gee, I like purple better than green".

So what if I'm being arrogant? Is there something wrong with wanting art to be worth something?

The people in the design studios and factories designing and assembling these kits deserve the credit for any claim to art in most scrapbooking.

MoniGram said:

The only people I insulted are those that think too highly of themselves in the first place. Did I say anywhere what I do is better? No. Please try not to insert words into my mouth. I'm willing to bet there are people who would look at what I do and refuse to call it art, either. And unlike you, I have the humility to accept that and not throw tantrums over another person's opinion.

When I do have kids, I plan on teaching them to do what they want artistically. Never settle for just doing as you're told to, especially when it comes to art. Ask the teacher why you have to make a turkey in the first place. Ask why you have to commemorate a holiday. Ask why everyone has to do the same thing. Then turn around and do what you want to do. Art is about what's inside yourself, not about following instructions.

I'm guessing you're not a Duchamp fan, then.

The only thing I can't stand more than pompous artists are people who think they have any ground to decide what is and isn't art.

evenstar3 said:

Duchamp's work reflects his artistic and intellectual development and in doing so challenges our own. i dig anything that provokes, thought, its through these movement of ideas that soceity itself progresses and grows..

that is most definitely art, creation, dynamic expression, what i dont like is the join the dot paint by nunbers etc etc, that pushes no boundaries what so ever, that isn't art, that is nothing, to me anyways..

but lets be real here, i was only expressing my thoughts, not like i am pushing them down anyones throat or anything.. the art world will not collapse simply because i dont see scrapbooking as an original representation and creation, something that i would call art, it may be artistic, but i sure as hell wouldn't stand in front of one for hours studying it..

You're mixing your arguments all up...

Argument #1: is scrapbooking using a kit art?
Argument #2: is a scrapbook made by the numbers from a kit good art?
Argument #3: is a person who creates a scrapbook by the numbers from a kit an artist?

Those are three different topics you've brought up, and the answer to each one can be correct indivudual from each of the other two answers.

Argument #1: Is scrapbooking using a kit art? Definitely, no question. You want to know why?

To use your own words:

Right there, you're admitting that the finished product is indeed art. You just are really arguing who should be credited as the "real" artist, the scrapbooker who bought the kit and created the book or the person(s) who designed the kit to begin with. But the reality is, who cares lol ...the scrapbook itself is art, no matter who you think should be credited with it's creation.

If I were paralyzed from the neck down and hired someone to set up my camera for me, put it on a tripoc, aim it in just the right position, instructed them on how to use the light meter and do a reading, told them which aperature settings to use, then told them exactly when the push the shutter release...then guided them through the development and darkroom process...would you say that the photo that resulted was NOT art because I personally did not physically create the finished product? So why would a scrapbook created by a kit be any different in your eyes?

Now, if that same assistant decided to change my aperature setting because he thought a slightly lower setting would create a better image, does he deserve any credit in the creation of that photo? You better damn well believe so. Even the smallest change ends up changing the end result. Believe it or not, the overwhelming majority of scrapbook makers don't stick robot-like to whatever patterns the kits they purchase use. You'll never see two exact duplicate scrapbooks ever made from the same kit. It's impossible for the individual people creating them to NOT have their own emotions, expressions and desires dictate the final result, regardless of if they started from the same place and took the exact same route. It just is.


Argument #2: is a scrapbook made by the numbers from a kit good art? I have no idea. In general, I say the more input the creator has to the concept, materials, structure and design of a work of any art, the better the art is, no matter how it turns out. But wanting to classify art as "good" or "bad" is a useless endeavor in my eyes. As long as the creator was expressing something sincerely within themselves, I tend to call it good art...even if my particular tastes may run counter to what they've created.


Argument #3: is a person who creates a scrapbook by the numbers from a kit an artist? Depends on which definition of the word "artist" you're referring to.

If by 'artist' you mean someone who makes a living thru creating art, then I guess it depends on the individual doing the scrapbooking.

If by 'artist' you mean someone who uses creativity, self-expression and thought to create a work of some sort, then yes.

When I took art history, we delved into how brush strokes helped define the emotion being expressed by the painter. Not the overall subject matter of the painting, but the details in the brush strokes...sometimes they were jagged and violent...sometimes they were smooth and calm...sometimes they were a mixture of both. From hindsight, we were often able to know what a particular painter was going thru personally at the time certain paintings were created, and see those emotions within the minute details of the brush strokes...NOT because the artist purposefully made sure to put them in there (though that did sometimes happen), but because the emotion the painter was feeling at the time was expressed in every infinite detail of the work of art, all the way down to the details of a stroke of paint.

That's what I refer to when I say it's impossible for a scrapbooker to NOT be expressing anything in their creation....that the kit will not dictate 100% of what ends up being expressed. So in that regard we're all artists...which I think is actually a great thing. Why be exclusionary? Let's champion it and encourage it in others, instead of shouting "YOU'RE NOT AN ARTIST, GOT DAMN IT!!" lol...


Anyway, there's Byron's Art Theory 101 lol...


...
[Edited 9/1/08 19:38pm]

OED said:

oh i wasn't really responding to anything you'd said, i just read the first post and replied. people deciding definitively what is and isn't art is a pet peeve of mine.

who said art has to push boundaries? it's expression, observation, etc, it doesn't have to be what we like. i hate jeff koons but that bastard's an artist nonetheless. if you wouldn't spend hours studying it that could mean it's not great art, but it doesn't mean it isn't art at all.

evenstar3 said:

i agree totally, but i believe that an artist must possess some level of skill, and work towards bettering their technique, brush strokes, the use of space, when to stop. I am very particular when it comes to art, but that doesnt mean i do not recognise the artistic skill involved in the creation of a piece..

of course art doesnt have to say anything, its just i prefer it when it does..

where as i question the level of skill or technique needed to scrapbook, i mean its just gluing shit down that has already been cut out for you. where is the art in that.

eraclito said:

That is where you are wrong! Most people who do scrapbooks come up with their own ideas, and cut their own things, design their own pages, to match the theme of their photos.

I think what everyone is not understanding...is those 'kits' that keep being mentioned are for beginners. Just like any kind of art, you have to start at the beginning, practice and get better.

MoniGram said:

see i already said cutting out your own pieces of paper, foils, cards is cool.. its the kits that the thread is about, its the kits that i am referring to..

so it seems we are at cross purposes.

eraclito said:

careful..... they have some crazy, scary scissors that can cut you into all sorts of patterns.

Holy shit.


So my plan is to stay away from scrapbookers.

shanti0608 said:

lol

sammij said:

that's my plan too, now, its like they have their own secret soceity..

and it looks like they brainwashed Byron

MoniGram said:

see i already said cutting out your own pieces of paper, foils, cards is cool.. its the kits that the thread is about, its the kits that i am referring to..

so it seems we are at cross purposes.

I'm guessing you're not a Duchamp fan, then.

The only thing I can't stand more than pompous artists are people who think they have any ground to decide what is and isn't art.

evenstar3 said:

seriously.

eraclito said:

careful..... they have some crazy, scary scissors that can cut you into all sorts of patterns.

Scrapbooking is cute. It's fun. It's awesome for passing the time, and it's a really kickass way to organize your photos into an album.


But it's not art, damn it. And if I have to listen to one more uninteresting nitwit housewife brag about their artistic and creative prowess through scrapbooking, I might have to hit them with a frying pan.

It's cutting paper and ribbons and arranging it around a photo, people. That's it. I know that art is entirely subjective, and that one person's garbage is another's art, but come on! Can't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't art have to involve a little, you know, creativity or effort or thought process or original ideas or something?

You can buy pre-made kits and stickers and designs. There are books available for the low, low price of $24.99 telling their readers what good ideas are. There are goof-proof stickers in case you can't coordinate yourself enough to place it on the page evenly. You can even buy machines now to cut the paper into factory-set designs for you, so you never even have to put in the effort of picking up a pair of scissors.





Look, if any of you are into scrapbooking, that's cool. I've got nothing against scrapbooking in and of itself.

But God damn it, stop trying to call it art!

JasmineFire said:

are those not curators?