I fucking hate scrapbooking, but it certainly is an art.

Byron said:

Well said!

meow85 said:

As for being so damn sensitive as you put it! You can think that if you wish, but once again, it's your opinion to think it's not art, but as Byron stated...

Art is not dictated by how difficult something is, how original it is or how much talent is required to do it. Art is simply any creative form of expression.

So I think you need to learn to think before you speak, and be ready for other's to voice their opinions, which might not agree with yours!!!

veronikka said:

But you're still using a kit. What's so creative about picking up the same hobby as everyone else and doing the same thing as everyone else?

Wow, after all of this hubbub, maybe Meow wants to actually tell us what she believes is art, if we just give her a chance. She has very clearly stated what she does not consider art. But on the converse side this can also be a chance for her to share what she really feels is art. I imagine the scrapbooking isle thing must have bothered her tremendously or challenged her view on what art is, otherwise the thread wouldn't have been created---

So then, let the thread evolve; if scapbooking is not an acceptable form of art, then what (in your view) is acceptable as art...?

JuliePurplehead said:

No, I tend to go to actual art supply stores and craft stores. The scrapbooking section in every store is pretty much just kits.

veronikka said:

Then why do you need a kit or a book or demonstration?

Byron said:

A creative form of expression. Exactly. I'm asking what's creative about scrapbooking when everything is already done for you. The people who work in the design studios putting these kits together are the ones who should get credit for any of the creativity, not the person who glues things down around their photos and tries to call it art. I'm sorry, but pasting on factory made stickers and stencils is not the same as actually creating something.

MoniGram said:

So where's the creativity? If that's art's defining feature, where is it in scrapbooking?

Ottensen said:

Just about anything is and can be art. But it has to require some actual thought and creativity on the part of the person calling themselves an artist. Gluing shit together based on ideas you saw in a book you paid too much for, using materials pre-assembled for you, is not art. The people in the design studios and factories designing and assembling these kits deserve the credit for any claim to art in most scrapbooking.

The product of those who do come up with their own ideas, don't make use of kits, etc. could be called art IMO. But that does not seem to be the majority of people who are into this hobby.

I am not denigrating scrapbooking or those who do it. I do think it's pretty cool, actually. But it's nothing if not putting on airs to pretend it has anything to do with art, unless you're designing the whole thing yourself. Otherwise, it's no more art than a paint by numbers.

eraclito said:

you're coming with me to the next scrapbooking convention you'll need one of these, you want the pink or the purple one?

meow85 said:

The only way a scrapbook could take creativity completely out of the equation and be "already done for you" is if you bought the scrapbook already finished, complete with photos in it...and all you had to do was set it down on a table.





You need to look up the word "create" then...because if it didn't exist before, you've created it. As I said, it's uniqueness does NOT separate art from non-art. If that person is expressing themselves thru the creation of their scrapbook, REGARDLESS of whether they use a kit or do it on their own, it's art.

And no matter what you feel about an individual's choice of expression--whether it be painting, music, photography or scrapbooking kit--you can not declare that they were not expressing anything thru their creation simply because you think anyone can do it. That's closing in on arrogance.

meow85 said:

No, you're talking about an assembly line.

In an assembly line production, the same thing gets made the EXACT same way, and there's ZERO desire to express oneself on that assembly line. They're doing so for the money, which is for survival. And again, anything done for reasons other than survival and reproduction is art.

I'm not sure why you keep leaving out the aspect of self expression and its role in art. If a scrapbooker uses a kit, and decides to NOT "glue some scrap of paper down", then they ARE thinking and putting thought behind their creation, arent' they? You shouldn't act like people who do scrapbooking are mindnumbed robots who don't blink. Every single thing that is glued or attached IS thought about, even if there are detailed instructions as to what goes where. The person making the scrapbook has to actually think whether they want to follow the pattern or not...whether what the kit outlines is what the desire.

Thought, creativity and expression are all present, whether you see it or not.

So I have a question. When I was 6 years old my kindergarten class made turkeys out of clay for Thanksgiving. We were all instructed by the "art" teacher on how to make the turkey but we could paint them any way we liked with the tools that the "art" teacher provided for us. So was my turkey a piece of art?

JuliePurplehead said:

Yep

Byron said:[quote]

meow85 said:

As is, all a person has to do is glue down what's already been made for them. That's not much different IMO.




How are they expressing anything to do with themselves when they're using someone else's design and ideas?

Let me put it another way. If a person goes to IKEA and buys a kit to put together a wooden chair, are they to be considered a carpenter and a designer? Or should the credit for the actual creating go to the person who had to draw out the concept, measure the design so that it's both ergonomically correct and pleasing to the eye, decide on wood stain or paint, and actually build the prototype?



It's not that they're not expressing anything per se. Those who actually create their own work are. But where's the self-expression in using someone else's material?

Byron said:

But I didn't design the whole thing myself and by Meow85's standards, it's not art.

Byron said:

Sweet, well I'm off to IKEA to buy a desk set. I've always wanted to be a world-renowned carpenter. To show my creativity and originality, I'll be installing pull knobs instead of bar handles. I'm a carpenter AND an artist.

JuliePurplehead said:

Children aren't given enough license to explore creativity and original thought. What if you didn't want to make a turkey at all, but had a different idea?

Nothing like the school system to teach kids they're being creative if they stick to colouring within the lines like everybody else.

JuliePurplehead said:

It's art to whoever came up with the turkey design in the first place. But 25 kids churning out near-identical birds just because it's a certain time of year? Nope.

meow85 said:

Is the kit telling you which photos to put where? Does the scrapbook self destruct if you dare not follow its pattern to the T or something? lol...Did the person buing the kit not have a choice between various scrapbook kits and pick the one that they felt best matched what they wanted to create?

You really ARE taking a rather arrogant stance towards the art of scrapbooking, and towards art in general. Yes, a scrapbook CAN be created with no thought, no creativity and no self-expression...but that doesn't mean that the scrapbooks that are created required none of those things. It's only your personal viewpoint that has deemed this to be fact, not the facts themselves.





Um, don't they PICK and CHOOSE which design they want to create? Or are you saying that there is only one scrapbook kit design available on the planet? And are you completely ignoring the fact that those who use kits still have the option of NOT following the pattern that the kit outlines?...If even ONE small detail of the kit pattern is changed or not follwed, then yes, thought was used in its creation...although thought was already being used when the person had to choose which kit to buy.





The definition of a carpenter or furniture designer is 1,000% different than that of art. That's apples and oranges, because a carpenter and a furniture designer are people...art is not a person. But to use your example, if I went to IKEA and bought a a kit to make a wooden chair, and then painted that wooden chair bright purple, that's art. That's a creative self-expression.




Again, you're comparing the self-expression of scrapbooking to the assembly line mentality of screwing in some bolts so that your new chair doesn't collapse when you sit in it. the person who puts together the chair is not wanting to create carpentry nor design furniture. The person who paints that same chair bright purple IS, though, wanting to express themselves creatively (art) as well as wanting to design a piece of furniture for their own.




"Per se"?...lol...They ARE expressing themselves thru scrapbooking. There's no "per se" about it.

meow85 said:

Gee, it sure felt like art when I was doing it. Not to mention that I went home to my mom asking her to buy me clay and paint so I could create some more. That takes us back to Veronikka's point of inspiration. While I may have started out using something that was not my own concept, it got the wheels turning in my head for me to come up with my own concepts.

JuliePurplehead said:

Meow and I don't quite see eye to eye on what art is lol ...

Byron said:

But how? Where is the self-expression? I don't see it. Simply choosing a different colour from a pre-made design is not being creative. All it is is "Gee, I like purple better than green".

So what if I'm being arrogant? Is there something wrong with wanting art to be worth something?

JuliePurplehead said:

That'd be because you were 6. Hopefully as a grown adult you wouldn't be telling yourself that a bird you made because you were told to make a bird is art. Your own concepts? It's still a bird you had to make because it was Thanksgiving.

Why not hand the kids some material and say "Go to town! Make something beautiful! Make whatever you feel!" That'd be my idea of art.
[Edited 9/1/08 16:09pm]

meow85 said:

But because I made that bird and I now had the experience with clay, I went home to make a turtle, a box, I even made an Atari joystick out of clay and numerous other things. You can take a picture of a butterfly but because someone else has taken a picture of a butterfly before, it's not art? You can record a cover of "Strawberry Fields Forever" but because the Beatle's already did it, your version is not art? You can dance the tango but because lots of people have already done it, it's not art? Have fun in your little box.

meow85 said:

Have you ever actually done this before?? Or are you only reading the boxes to the kits? Do you realize that most scrapbooks are very unique in nature.

And I have to know, what makes this different then any other form of art? Are you telling me that since Raphael was influenced by Da Vinci, makes his work not art?? Everyone takes ideas from others, if you are a great artist, or someone who decides to use their creativity to make something special about their memories! Art is art!!!

JuliePurplehead said:

Those new things you made would be art, but I wouldn't consider the turkey art.

Has someone else taken a picture of a butterfly that you tried to copy exactly? Was the cover version note for note the original? Are you only doing the steps the tango instructor told you, or are you trying somethign new out? The definition of art hinges on whether there's any creativity involved. Copying something directly, you might as well be a Xerox. So no, if something is a perfect copy or comes out of a kit, I wouldn't consider it art.

I can't believe that you people think buying kits are the height of artistic expression.

meow85 said:

Not everyone uses those kits! Just because that's all YOU see when you go to the art supply store doesn't mean everyone uses them. If your real beef is with the kits then you should change your thread title to "GOD DAMN IT, SCRAPBOOKING KITS ARE NOT ART!". My local art supply store has about 6 aisles dedicated to scrapbooking. The kits take up about half of one aisle. Maybe it's different in Canada.

MoniGram said:

Yeah, I have. It's kinda fun. It's a great way to spend time. But it's not art. It felt like playing connect-the-dots.

Being influenced by another's ideas is one thing -pasting together bits and pieces someone already made and calling it your own expression is another. Raphael took Da Vinci's ideas and stretched and re-shaped and expanded on them, making them his own. Someone making a scrapbook is akin to giving the Mona Lisa a brown dress instead of black. It's still Da Vinci's work, not yours.

That said, there are a lot of famous artists I wouldn't necessarily consider art either, and I'm big fans. Damien Hurst? Interesting and ballsy as all hell, but it's nothing a high school science teacher couldn't do. Warhol? Vapid consumerism for the sake of vapid consumerism. Maybe it has a deep message, maybe not. Not art though. Jackson Pollock? Your average toddler could do the same, given a big enough canvas. I think these people's work is great, but I'd hesitate to call any of it art. Something isn't bad because it's not art, which is what I've said from the beginning. But you have to call things what they are. I know all art is entirely subjective, and I'm entitled to my subjective opinion that scrapbooking is not art, just as you folk are entitled to think it is.