IceNine said:

I wish I could agree. But in this country where the inability to communicate too often separates the "haves" from the "have nots," race is of tantamount importance. As an African American English teacher, and as a geek who read the dictionary for fun from the age of 10, it is my duty to make sure that my freshmen are prepared to enter a world that may judge them as ignorant because of what comes out of their mouths. I just sense an undercurrent here that we need to examine.

And please accept this next comment with the same love and sternness I offer my students - "The races of the individuals are not the issue here." Subject verb agreement error. The subject of the sentence is "races." (The subject of a sentence is never found in the prepositional phrase.) You would never say "The races is not the issue here."
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 15:25:15 PST 2002 by teacherlady88]

teacherlady88 said:

I am very aware of the "races are" thing... it was a typographical error. Trust me on this... I meant "the race of the individuals is not the issue here," as they were all of the same race.

One additional comment:

That was VERY condescending, as I am fully aware of the concept of subject-verb agreement. I would have proofread what I wrote if this was an English paper. Although I do not like poor English usage, you do not see me correcting anyone on this site at any time do you? Would you like to know why? It is because people type things very quickly and might miss errors that they make when they clearly know how things should be spelled or written. There is a very big difference between a simple typographical error people using improper English at all times.

I would appreciate it if you would realize that your comment was extraordinarily condescending and out of place.

Oh... and "subject-verb agreement" is hyphenated, in case you didn't know.

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 15:34:02 PST 2002 by IceNine]

OK. Point taken. And the undercurrent?

teacherlady88 said:

The undercurrent? If you are speaking of the race of the individuals, all of them were African-American.

I did not provide the race of the individuals because I did not want to be called a racist for no good reason.

Anyway, I agree with you 100% on everything except correcting my typographical error.

the undercurrent, and most likely what the thread's title should have said, is: "Is learning "proper" English harder for black children with parents who also speak Ebonics"?

IceNine said:

I think you will find that I addressed this exact issue in the org note I sent to you.

IceNine said:

Hmmm--why can't you just say "I was wrong", why have to explain and justify why you wrote "is" instead of "are"? Aren't you secure enough in your intelligence that you wouldn't have to be so defensive?

If the kids were all black, then race is significant to this story, since you didn't list examples of the way other white people or people of other races speak.

Excellent topic!

NegaTIVity said:

The thing is this... there is no need to correct people's typographical errors on a message board, nor should you correct their grammar or punctuation. I don't know if you should call it defensive or just aggravated. I would consider it aggravated rather than defensive, but it is up to you to decide what you think my emotions were at the time of my posting.

As far as that race thing goes, there were no glaring English-usage errors made by any caucasians in attendance, therefore I cannot comment on errors made by them.

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 16:24:25 PST 2002 by IceNine]

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[This message was edited Sun Nov 24 20:40:20 PST 2002 by inthecream]

NegaTIVity said:

This would apply to ANY children with parents who speak improper English. I think that you are smart enough to realize this.

If I would have heard a bunch of whites speaking very poor English, I would have posted what they said too... it has NOTHING to do with the race of the speakers.

There are a great number of white people who try to speak ebonics too and I would have thought the same thing about them as well.

Why do people have to try to turn everything into some kind of stupid racist bullshit???

I purposely avoided any discussion of race in this thread because it has nothing to do with my question yet you want to make it an issue. I find this to be very pathetic.

I've seen you correct many people's grammar and punctuation here, actually. Is it different when it's YOU? When it's you, it's suddenly a TYPOGRAPHICAL error, not grammatical? No, it's not my job to decide your emotional state--just to sit back and write what I observe, and what I think you're unwilling to admit on the forum and to yourself.

You mention elements of black culture that you don't understand or like (language, music, etc.), yet refuse to acknowledge that the "black" element plays a role in your difficulties.

I'm just surprised you have your son enrolled in a school that would allow black people who can't speak properly within the doors. After all, it is Texas and your grandfather was a millionnaire and I'm sure you've got money yourself--put him in a private school, so he can feel comfortable and so can you when you have lunch with him.

Thecherryloon said:

Excuse me, but being a person who scored in the 95th percentile of the Verbal section of the American SAT, I beg to differ, my friend. I would agree, however, that there are distinct differences between American English, and the"Queen's English" that is taught and spoken throughout the United Kingdom and its' colonies, oh I mean, former colonies! I don't see either as being the "proper" form of English, rather than simply being different.

NegaTIVity said:

IceNine said:

Negativity continued:

IceNine replied:

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 16:29:15 PST 2002 by IceNine]

You've corrected MANY Orgers. (I'll look someday for the specifics when I have nothing better to do) You were trying to make a point to them, that they weren't all that special. If you'd like to call those occasions "flamewars", then fine. My point here was that it's okay to admit you're wrong sometimes. You can't seem to do that. For example, when you erroneously assumed I called your son "pointless" on a thread the other day--you refused to apologize for saying "fuck you" to me. All you'd admit was that you hadn't seen all of my posts on the thread, and that you would allow us to proceed past the misunderstanding.

Oh, no, Tony, I am critical of IDEAS, not people. What you call pompous in me, is like me holding up a mirror to your face. You come off that way CONSTANTLY, even your "friends" say so, yet they forgive you because then you back off and apologize. It's funny how much name-calling you get away with towards others here, while the rest of us get warned and "snipped". Just yesterday on a thread, you called someone a foul name, yet it remains...

And if you think this is "me", this NegaTIVity person: then your common sense smarts really are shitty. As I mentioned to someone else yesterday--I serve a much larger purpose. Even if it pisses you off, it's true.

inthecream said:

I disagree. I learnt "Proper" English at school without any difficulty whatsoever, even though my Parents first language was not English. I did not feel at a dis-advantage in anyway. You would be surprised how quickly children can pick up two or more languages, and speak them both extremely well.

Damn..there goes my proper English !
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 16:56:04 PST 2002 by Lleena]

I am certainly not what I appear to be. But I sure get some great reactions from people and know how to push buttons. Ice, you are so easily riled it's kinda funny...

Grow a thicker skin for those occasions where not everyone agrees with you, when they actually might call you out on your shit.

NegaTIVity said:

IceNine replied:

Negativity continued:

IceNine replied:

Negativity continued:

IceNine replied:

NegaTIVity said:

I am not sure what you are talking about, as I am not "riled," nor have my buttons been pushed.

Have I flamed you or seemed angry? No, I haven't. I am not angry or even aggravated with you.

So, back to the topic at hand...

Any more comments?

ReeseStrongnight said:

IceNine said:

Well, Ice...
I don't want to confine this discussion to a simple yes or no, BUT- I don't think it would be difficult at all, though I think it depends on the parenting situation of each child. In some cases, maybe the parents might speak in this way because they really don't know the rules of grammatically correct American English. In many cases though, speaking in this manner is simply a reflection of dialects that are part of a cultural heritage and tradition, originating in the southern regions of the United States from both black and white Americans (although the dialect managed inch its way north with southern migrants after the dissolution of slavery). For example, I am a Black person who grew up with one college educated parent and one parent who barely finished high school. In the comfort of our home, we generally spoke (and still speak) in a grammatically incorrect dialect. It's fun, it's comforting, and somehow it's a reminder of my parents' heritage from the south. However, my parents, (being as THEY ARE) were always very clear in their requirements to speak grammatically correct English in the presence of strangers, or in situations outside of our home, so it was never a problem for me to speak correct English. I actually excelled in the subject for my entire scholastic career, as well as foreign languages! What's even more interesting is the fact that ALL of my (black) friends are graduates of Ivy League Colleges (or at LEAST 2nd tier competitive universities!), and in spite of their $150-200,000 college
educations, when we're all relaxing together in an informal environment, we UNABASHEDLY indulge in the most grammatically incorrect English you can imagine (I believe they now refer to it as "ebonics" in America)!Since I've had the opportunity to study other languages and live abroad with an international job, I've come to realize that what we've been doing all this time is speaking in dialects, just as people do in other countries. It's so tricky, this thing with dialects, because, they not only span across educational lines, but regional lines as well. If you think of everyone you've ever known within our national borders, from north, to south, to east, to west- with the influence of Spanish (think southwest), French (think mid to eastern south, Louisianna, Mississippi, W.Alabama) to the relentlessly Brittish-and-won't-let-go-of-the-past-already-New Englandlers, to OH, GOD!!! My very own stomping grounds in the midwest (now that's a REALLY special accent/dialect!!! It has German, Scandinvian, and Slavic influences, I think)! We have a serious mixture of dialects going on under the surface of what is accepted as "proper" English in America, yet, I see people from all of these cultural experiences speaking, living, and excelling in our "national" tongue every day without great difficulty at all. I think that ultimately, American households are comprised of many dialects and accents, but it is up to the parents of each individual to encourage and/or enforce
the grammatically correct use of "standard" English outside of informal situations ( as they do for example, in the romance languages like Spanish, Italian, French, etc.,)...

ReeseStrongnight said:

Yeah, I can see what you are saying... this is an absolutely GREAT reply and it was very well said.

I think that you are right... the parents are very important in this. The cultural heritage thing is also something to think about, as are regional dialects and such.

Would you consider the examples that I heard today to be regional dialect, vernacular, cultural tradition or lack of education? It is a very tough question and you are right... there are certainly educated people who speak incorrect English when they are in situations that do not require proper English.

My viewpoint on this is probably pretty messed up, as I use slang and so forth as well, but I stick with rules of grammar. The people that I witnessed today were using improper grammar and were saying things that made them sound illiterate when they could very well have been educated people who were simply speaking in a way that was comfortable for them. I really do believe that it sends a message that is contrary to the message that kids learn in school though, but I guess there is no harm as long as they actually do learn to speak and write proper English.

This is a subject that I have been trying to understand for some time and I hope to get a handle on it sometime in the future.

Well shit. This thread has gotten too long for me to read in one sitting and the double mocha I had for lunch ain't helping!

So humor me, Ice. Especially if I repeat shit that's already been said. I have the attention span of a rock at this point.

I think there's a big difference between people who were born & raised here or with English as a first language as opposed to people who are immigrants and thus have ESL kids. Uneducated or not.

My father has been in the US for almost thirty years now and he is STILL struggling with English. However, he is very much educated, as my mother (but English was her first language and she primarily raised us) and we seemed to have turned out fine. I see it in the students I tutor, as well - I would say more than half of them have ESL problems, and they are in the 'remedial' Core classes. There is definitely a correlation there.

So yes, I believe there is truth in what you're saying. If what I'm saying even pertains.

I need to go lie down now.

maybe y'all speakin' a differn dialect?

Natsume said:

I was actually talking about people that I saw who were native English speakers, but your point about non-native English speakers is very good...

I can certainly understand the problems that the English language can pose for people who speak English as a second language.

IceNine said:

Go back and review your last several replies to me on this thread: yes, you sound aggravated, at the very least. You refer to me bringing race into the discussion as "pathetic" (although I didn't accuse you of racism). You also make accusations that I judge others and that I lack the fundamental skills to socialize. This most certainly sounds like anger or aggravation.

I think that anybody can speak "proper" English if they really wanted to. I don't think that someone can judge if a person is uneducated or not by the way the person talk. In the business field I've met many uneducated articulate speaking people. And I've met many intelligent people that didn't speak the "proper" English. I honestly think that people forget the rules of grammar as they grow older. I made all A's in Grammar and English, and I forget some of the rules of grammar myself.

NegaTIVity said:

It might sound like anger or aggravation to you, but it is not so. You made this statement:

"the undercurrent, and most likely what the thread's title should have said, is: "Is learning "proper" English harder for black children with parents who also speak Ebonics?"

I purposely left race out of the thread because I was not concerned with ebonics or black language at all. I have started topics about ebonics in the past because I am of the opinion that it is not a legitimate language, but this thread is not about that, or I would have posted it as such. I believe that if the language spoken in the children's home is not at least a close approximation of the language that they are trying to learn in school it can be a hinderance to the child's learning ability.

I was not angry but I did not have any racial motivation in creating this thread, so I asked why you brought race into it with your "most likely what the thread's title should have said" comment.

If you did not want to bring race into it, why did you propose that title? You did not call me a racist, but I took what you proposed to be an insinuation of racism. This was simply my interpretation of it and it doesn't necessarily mean that you intended anything of the sort.

At any rate, it is not worth arguing about.

EDIT: You didn't say that you were not trying to bring race into the issue, so some of my comments above are misplaced.

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 21:38:30 PST 2002 by IceNine]

AbucahX said:

I would have to agree with you at this point... someone could be educated and still speak improper English. I will acknowledge that possibility and I can see it happening.

Also, a person could be a brilliant mathematician and not be able to speak proper English, as they are much more concerned with math than English.

I just have to re-think my position on the matter, that is all.