teller said:

I'm really liking you alot Teller!

The very first language I learned before attending school was not English. By the time I went to school I could speak two languages, however, I learnt most of my English and how to speak properly at school. So having parents that do not speak English well etc makes no difference. However, I did go to good schools so I guess this compensated for the lack of English spoken at home.

Maybe the British education system is the best in the world.

Lleena said:

The quality of education system has a lot to do with it!!

As a former English teacher, I feel somewhat qualified to answer this question. I do not believe that there is such a thing as "proper English." I do believe that there is an accepted, standard "published" English. If two native speakers are speaking in a way that both can understand, it is correct.

However, this is not what is taught in the school system. I believe that there is Grammar1 and Grammar2. Grammar1 is what we, as native speakers, instinctively know as speakers. Listen to children form the past tense of irregular verbs. Children do not say "taught"; they say "teached." Grammar2 is the recognition that "teached" is incorrect. Grammar2 is understanding the system that makes up whether something is gramatically correct or not. Grammar2 involves naming subjects, objects, phrases, and clauses. I constantly hear the past participle used incorrectly. My understanding of Grammar2 makes this possible.

The real issue is the learning process that goes with understanding the difference. This way of thinking will carry over to all areas of academic study.

This skill will make a student succeed.

jbchavez said:

Do you believe that those things are taught to the student or are they inate?

If they are taught, do the parents teach them? Does the education level of the parents have anything to do with it?

applekisses said:

Do you believe that those things are taught to the student or are they inate?

If they are taught, do the parents teach them? Does the education level of the parents have anything to do with it?[/quote]

These skills can definately be taught. If by "level" you mean whether or not the parent has a degree, I say this does not matter. If by "level" you mean the overall intelligence of the parent, I say yes.

My wife and I have degrees. Having a knowledge of what it takes to earn degrees will benifit our children when it comes time to educate them on the college experience.

Overall, I think the ability to take what is known to figure out the unknown is the most important skill. A person needs to understand how to learn something.

sag10 said:

Very cool sag10. Congratulations to you and your nephew. It's people like you that makes it seem as though there may be hope for us afterall.

applekisses said:

English was my grandfather's native language, so he didn't have that hurdle to overcome... I can completely understand problems with English as a second language, as modifiers are placed differently in English than in other languages. That is a good point to remember...

IceNine said:

In theory...

U'd think so

but...

Some people are willing to learn, some are not. Some are blissfully inept.

SweeTea said:

Yes!

That was an EXTREMELY cool story and I am very proud that Sag10 helped her nephew do so well in school!

GREAT WORK, SAG10!!!

I have to say that this was a very interesting thread to read and as much as I never agree with Icenine in most threads, I do appreciate the honesty he has demonstrated.

I would suggest you keep asking these sorts of questions until you're satisfied with the answers and have learned all you can about others.

I think the general intelligence of kids growing up today is worryingly low. But then I also think the average person on the street (in England and, I imagine, the US) is rather naive and often ignorant about a whole heap of things.

Many times I've considered how degrees and exam grades are something completely different to intelligence.

If u grow up with intelligent clued-up friends and then one day u realise u and your friends aren't of average intelligence it's quite a scary realisation. People are, on the whole, quite incompetent.

Banality and ineptness, especially in Thailand.

Somebody teach these people some damn common sense!

Rhondab said:

Thank you... and... I am learning some good stuff here!

Would you like more honesty? Okay, here you go... I have always felt "different" than other people... I always made great grades, never smoked, drank or used illegal drugs... my intelligence set me apart from the other kids and I never really felt close to them... I was well liked, but I didn't really get into socializing that much. I preferred reading and learning for some reason... while other kids were out drinking and doing dope, I was buried in books and music. My intellect grew at the cost of socializing with other kids... my friends were Einstein, Freud, Nietzsche, Russell, Plato, Vonnegut, Nabakov and the like...

This is why it is so hard for me to understand illiteracy and things like rap music... I am not from "the streets" and I find it hard to understand that mindset, so I can't really understand the allure of that stuff.

Sad story, eh?

...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 12:45:19 PST 2002 by IceNine]

Ever read Dr. Faustus? U shoulda gone into necromancy, that's where all the fun is once u've exhausted the standard routes of learning.

IceNine said:

It's sad because you are missing out!!! I'm not from the streets but I appreciate the "poetry" of SOME hip hop.

I understand that people are just trying to survive and doesn't mean they don't love their children if their first priority is survival and not an education. I realize that with some of the gov't and private programs for the poor is a set to keep them poor. (Email me if you want me to explain.)

Have you realized that most of our most talented people in the world come from poverty and some even being "uneducated". Instead of doggin' Hip hop or being critical of slang, learn about it. It's about learning and I've learned more about life from my "ghetto hoochie momma" clients that I have from my "educated" friends. That's no lie.

IceNine said:

I relate to this lifestyle myself...but I don't find it sad at all. We are all unique...and I personally have had great intellectual adventures that others will never have, and it feels special to me--as it should to you! It's just lonely sometimes...

Thanks for this thread Icenine.

IceNine said:

YESSS! It's so true...modifiers and pronouns are usually problem areas for non-English speakers.
My mom always says things like..."shut/close the light" or "I'm watching THE T.V." instead of "I'm watching T.V."

Have you studied another language?

teller said:

Well, I just have to say that I think you are both great and I'm happy to call you my buddies.

Thats a tricky question to answer.

Simply growing up with parents who speak broken or improper english doesn't necessarily mean you will do the same.

My grandparents came right off the boat from Italy and spoke very choppy english. My mom speaks it fine. But when she would talk to them, she would speak with alot of italian and broken english.


If the parents push their kids to get an education, then they will learn English, and perhaps a few other languages. If the parents don't care, and the kid slacks off they will probabbly settle for their local dialect and slang.

applekisses said:

Yes... I learned German and have now unlearned it due to the problem of finding anyone else who speaks German here.

IceNine said:

Learn Thai. No plurality, verb endings etc.

House Big.

Food Spicy Alot.

Speak Thai Little Can.

IceNine said:

Something that has helped me keep up with my languages is finding chat rooms in those languages.
That way you can take the time to read what people are posting and that helps you to remember.

bkk1981 said:

Sounds like POOK!

applekisses said:

applekisses said:

I wouldn't be able to keep up at all at this point... I can barely even remember the basics now... damn, that sucks. I haven't actually spoken German with anyone in 12 years.

bkk1981 said:

It is the phonemes that would fuck me all the way up... I cannot even imagine speaking any of the asian languages due to the "strangeness" of the phonemes to me.

IceNine said:

The simple answer to this question is yes. And it makes the student resistant to change. Imagine my frustration when I am going through a grammar lesson with my students and they are complaining that what I am trying to teach them doesn't sound right because they have never heard correct language. And it gets worse. I had a student come to my desk in tears during a written examine. I do not allow my students to use contractions during writing assignments. She could not figure out what words to use if she could not use the word "doesn't." That was a sad day.

My husband is a CPA with a law degree. I have two Master's degrees and I am 3 years from my Ph.D. My daughter was correcting the language of our adult friends at the age of 5. (It took a while, but we got her to stop doing that.) I had relatives who did not have the best language skills, but I had a mother who insisted that her children speak correct English.

Here is something that needs to be pointed out. If the kid is lucky, s/he will have family and friends who want to see him/her do better. Sometimes that is not the case. It is often true that the child's progress is seen as a threat to the ones who are "left behind." My mother was considered "uppity" by several of our relatives. If it is not important to the parent if the child speaks well, then it will not be important to the child. And you cannot tell grown folks that they speak badly - unless they are in your class.

And, on the other side, just because a person is educated does not mean that s/he cannot benefit from a grammar refresher course. Here is a a couple of general examples of things that people do not want to hear. A lot is two words, not one. Your and you're are two different words and not interchangable.

Two questions IceNine. And they are things I wonder about. This is not an attack.

1)Why the constant use of the ellipsis?

2) What was (were) the race(s) of these ignorant people you had lunch with?
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 13:43:48 PST 2002 by teacherlady88]

teacherlady88 said:

1. The ellipsis is used because I like it and I am never finishing my thoughts. It is just saying "This is an unfinished mess, I am sorry." I suspect that this is the same reason that WellBeyond uses it so much. It is fun and I like it very much.

Technically, the ellipsis is used to denote the omission of words or whatever.

2. The race of the individuals is not the issue here, it is their English skills that I was concerned with.

EDITED: Changed "races" to "race"
...
[This message was edited Fri Nov 15 15:28:17 PST 2002 by IceNine]