IceNine said:

That's why you should speak of your party and not support a party that you do not like.Even when you try to "balance"
the playing field you end up helping on side or the other.

IceNine said:

The problem is that "voting according to your conscience" might produce results that are far more an insult to your conscience than simply voting strategically. For instance, I'd love to vote for a party that is more to the left provincially, but the problem is that the Conservatives are enacting such stupid laws that are basically americanizing my province. You think that if Conservatives would enact policies that would make the life of AIDS patients more difficult, it would be a great triumph of personal conscience to make it easier for them to be reelected? I have a conscience in a voting booth, but also between elections. Here in Ontario, the neo-conservative "revolution" has been achieved on the backs of the most vulnerable -- people on welfare, single mothers, etc. That is far more an affront to my conscience than voting for a party that is not as far to the left as I'd wish.
[This message was edited Thu Nov 7 7:48:41 PST 2002 by Aerogram]

Aerogram said:

You are really making me feel at home here in the U.S

This thread is ONE good reason to bar politics from my life, thanks.

gooeythehamster said:

The above quote is why politics are such a mess. The day everyone thinks like that is the day politicians totally overtake our lives and just enact policies that are great for them and their friends.

Aerogram said:

You can either vote for the lesser of two evils or vote for the candidate that you REALLY want to win the election. I can understand the desire to vote for the lesser of two evils, but I also understand the importance of voting for the candidate that you WANT to win the election.

We really only have two parties here in America as far as the presidency goes because people really only vote for Republicans and Democrats... it is sad, but true. If voters do not vote for Libertarians, Greens, etc. they will never get the mainstream exposure that they need to compete, as the media and general public will say that they can never win an election and they are useless.

Pesonally, I hope the Republicans continue to dominate. See, they oppose all those environmental groups that want to tear down the various rain forests of the world. Whenever the big businesses come tearing into my neck of the rain forest, I get to eat for a week! Loggers are great with catsup! You'd think that those dumbasses that run these corporations would have figured out by now that they shouldn't send anyone into the Black Lagoon area, but then, I've never really thought of you humans as smart! So vote Republican, 'cause the GillMan's gotta eat!

2 Good reasons NOT to vote for a Republican (although we know many already did)

*Bob Dornan
*Jesse Helms

2 Religious fanatic freaks that the Republican party allowed into their fold.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Yep...

Why, oh why won't the Republican's cut out that fucking religious shit? Oh... because there are a TON of people who will support them ONLY because of their anti-abortion platform...

I got it.

IceNine said:

Exactly. These are the type of people that are happy that Matthew Sheppard was strung up on a Wyoming fence and left for dead by gay bashers. These are the same type of people that showed up at Matthews funeral with signs saying that fags deserve to die.

Republicans you really should be happy to have these leaders as your representatives.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Yeah, that is fucking unacceptable shit... this is where I really HATE the Republican Party... they allow religion to influence their policy and I cannot stand that shit.

It is really fucking sad that people hate others for their sexual choices... and in some cases, biological sexual choice that cannot be helped. Ignorance...

IceNine said:

This is the main reason I hate that party so much too. Just leave me alone. I don't bother you, don't bother me either. This is no reason to be proud and so many are. It's really sad and scary too.

IceNine said:

I certainly can identify with your desire to see more choice, but the way I see it, it depends on the threat the favored winner represents. A unrestrained Republican leadership could wreck considerable havoc. In politics as in everything else, we are not faced with ideal choices, so it's important to remain pragmatic. Let's say the Republicans would announce their intention of reducing environmental standards, open national parks for drilling and mining, bring back prayer to the classroom, etc... well between voting against that and having a third party, I'd have to pick the former. My conscience would suffer far more from not fighting these policies as effectively as I can than not voting for the party that best reflects my core beliefs. But that's me...
[This message was edited Thu Nov 7 13:26:07 PST 2002 by Aerogram]

Aerogram said:

I COMPLETELY respect Ice's position on voting with his concience but Aero is making a great point. I will never cast my vote for a Libertarian (even though this is where I'm leaning more and more) because at this point it becomes wasted and gives the Republicans an advantage. And Like Aero said I cannot in good concience allow the conservative right the option to force their beliefs on me.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

See... that is a problem too.

I would love to know how many people WOULD vote Libertarian but WON'T vote Libertarian because they think that they can't win...

It would be very interesting to see that number... I know that my mom and dad would vote Libertarian if they thought that the Libertarians would win and I am sure that there are MANY more people just like that.

My point is that if everyone who WOULD vote for the Libertarians DID vote for Libertarians, the Libertarians might very well win.

Partisan politics is divisive. We should try to avoid systems and practices that divide.

Every adult member of a jurisdiction should be eligible to vote and to be elected to office in that jurisdiction. There are no nominations, no campaigns, not even any discussion of who might be the best choice.

Each voter must, through careful consideration, arrive at a decision based on his or her own knowledge of the people in the community and/or district or even nation.

All I observe in our system at present is mudslinging, inflated promises, and self-aggrandizement and corruption that attend political elections.

A way needs to be found that serves to unify rather than divide communities.
[This message was edited Thu Nov 7 14:38:35 PST 2002 by feltbluish]

Ice, I would be one of those people that WOULD vote Libertarian if I was sure that there was a huge enough movement afoot that would insure the likely possibility of success.

Have there ever been polls to find out how many people would rather vote Libertarian?

IceNine said:

or better yet..join your fellow liberal thinkers within the democractic party and force the party to from within change...

SkletonKee said:

Which is an excellent idea! You'd already have a wide base of support in this scenario.

Aerogram said:

Well said. Truth be told, greater America is still afraid of women in positons of power, no matter how far we think we've come.

Libertarianism is a flawed political construct. Frankly, it's elitist and selfish, and could only be successful in a world populated by fair, intelligent, and industrious people. In the real world, dumb people would perish under Libertarian rule. It's social Darwinism.

For example: eliminate drug laws. No problem, I wouldn't touch them. But in a population where 25% still smoke cigarettes despite 30 years of health warnings...well you get the picture. a lot of very dead bodies would follow. Sometimes I get the feeling that this would be okay with hardcore Libertarians.

The flawed policy list is long indeed, but anyone with their basic shit together, perhaps I include myself, would love to see these policies in effect FOR THEMSELVES. It stops making sense when you realize that many people (who are not as gifted as IceNine) would be endangered and suffer when they no longer had a government to regulate their lives.

Libertarians rely on the intelligence and good will of the citizenry for law and order. Unfortunately, that's far from the society or world that I live in.