NDRU said:

That's like saying you lied to someone because they wouldn't be able to handle the truth. They made it hard for you to be honest.
[Edited 6/6/08 15:03pm]

eikonoklastes said:

That situation could happen. It doesn't excuse the lie, but it makes it more understandable.

Another example. A person could push your buttons to the point where they're risking physical violence. It doesn't excuse you hitting them, but you can see that maybe they played some part in it as well.

To quote Bono/U2
"I would never take the chance/
Of losing love to find romance."

A song on "How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb."

eikonoklastes said:

No it isn't. Not even close, dude.

what's going on in this thread?

JasmineFire said:

Totally...but many people have a hard time seeing the bigger picture.

And ya, no one said it's right or taking blame off the person who does the cheating.

JustErin said:

It may also be worth distinguishing between a long term relationship and a short one. If you cheat on someone after a couple months, then you simply aren't that dedicated to the person and acted selfishly.

If you cheat on your partner of 20 years it's a little more complicated.

I was the 'other woman' twice, back in days when I had the ability to do whatever I wanted without worrying about the consequences or how much I might be hurting others in the process. At the time, I figured that because I wasn't the individual cheating on the spouse, I shouldn't feel shitty about what I was doing to her and/or their children (and anyone else emotionally involved in those families). What happened to the first family is so painful I'd prefer to not mention it here. Thankfully, my second experience ended before she ended up the wiser.

Don't get me wrong, I still lack morals more than most others, I just enjoy my heathen ways on levels where others can't be harmed. And no, I have no room to judge anyone doing what I did. I just chalk it up to being young and careless. I was 17 the first time and in my early 20s the second. I know better now that it's not worth it. There are a shitload of hot asses out there more deserving of my bedtime acrobatics--those who are available to have fun without hurting their loved ones are usually better lovers because they are better people.

eikonoklastes said:

Oh man. Geez Louise.

Listen, cheating is wrong. No one is saying it's ok or really excusable here.

I'm saying that it's understandable in some cases, and that in a relationship where needs are not being met...sometimes people stray.

Yes, I know. If you're not happy then you should just leave...we all know that golden rule...but the facts are that not everyone does that...in fact, I'd guess that a good many do not.

Does that make it right? No. But does a wife that is unwilling to meet the needs of her husband something that is ok or excusable? No. Or a man not willing to meet the needs of his wife ok or excusable? No, it's not...but it still happens.

JustErin said:

Exactly, and if there's marriage involved, people don't just necessarily leave each other. They're supposed to work it out. Not that I believe in marriage, but some people do

I know someone who was married for ten years and her husband literally never had sex with her. She believed in marriage, they were best friends, but come on, of course she had an affair!

NDRU said:

I'm not one for marriage either...not that I am not for long term committed relationships - I am. I'm just convinced that the majority of us have no business making promises we simply can't keep.

Listen, I know guys who are married who barely ever get to have sex with their wives. The women just don't want to have it at all. There's the excuse that they are tired, and blah blah blah...trust me, I know all about the difficulties with being a mommy. But to have the attitude that sex is something that is not an important part of your marriage is ridiculous...and quite honestly unfair.

And sometimes it's not even about sex. People have emotional affairs on each other all the time. It's about not getting a need met and sometimes a spouse flat out refuses to meet that need when they are talked to about it. I know someone going through this right now.

Again, I am not saying that cheating is right. I'm not saying that it doesn't cause heartache and doesn't destroy families...I'm just saying that in many cases the family was already pretty much destroyed before the spouse had an affair. People always are so quick to blame the cheater and label them someone who does not care about the feelings of others, well the wife or husband that is rationing sex or whatever it is isn't caring about the feelings of their spouse as well. But hey, no one ever really dares to say that about the situation.

Of course, there are some people who are just jerks with no regard for other's feelings.

JustErin said:

well said!

NDRU said:

Don't be mad!

You wait, I'm sure I'm about to be crucified in a few.

LleeLlee said:

it is the only thing he has to go on! She remarried and now has kids, he has never grown up, still partying every weekend like a teenager. The number of times he has lost his licence for DUI, or waking up somewhere with no recollection of how he got there…

The person getting cheated on is in part responsible for the relationship going bad, but not responsible for the cheating. That's on the cheater and the "other person."

What you choose to do as a result of the relationship going bad is on you.

NICELY PUT

JustErin said:

To reiterate previous posts:

Whatever problems in a marriage are not going to be helped, by having an affair. To be sure, marriage isn't easy. Work out the issues, or leave.
Don't make excuses for irresponsibility.

I'm a little bit amazed by perspectives.
Back in the days, (1950's and 60's) it WAS considered the woman's fault, for their husband's infidelities. Here it is, 2008, post women's lib, Gloria Steinman etc. and individuals much younger than myself, still believe this??? :-

xplnyrslf said:

Are you just assuming that the man is the one cheating? Not in my experience.

I'm refering to the "norm":

See also
6 Further reading



[edit] Philosophy
In philosophy, normative statements affirm how things should or ought to be, how to value them, which things are good or bad, which actions are right or wrong. Normative is usually contrasted with positive (i.e. descriptive, explanatory, or constative) when describing types of theories, beliefs, or propositions. Positive statements are falsifiable statements that attempt to describe reality.

For example, "children should eat vegetables", "smoking is bad", and "those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" are normative claims. On the other hand, "vegetables contain a relatively high proportion of vitamins", "smoking causes cancer", and "a common consequence of sacrificing liberty for security is a loss of both" are positive claims. Whether or not a statement is normative is logically independent of whether it is verified, verifiable, or popularly held.

It is only with David Hume in the 18th century that philosophers began to take cognizance of the logical difference between normative and descriptive statements and thinking. There are several schools of thought regarding the status of normative statements and whether they can be rationally discussed or defended. Among these schools are the tradition of practical reason extending from Aristotle through Kant to Habermas, which asserts that they can, and the tradition of emotivism, which maintains that they are merely expressions of emotions and have no rational content.

Normative statements and norms, as well as their meanings, are an integral part of human life. They are fundamental for prioritizing goals and organizing and planning thought, belief, emotion and action and are the basis of much ethical and political discourse.

The way in which individuals or societies define that which they consider to be appropriate, that is to be in accordance with their (normative) standards, varies greatly between peoples and cultures. Many philosophers have searched for a source of normative values which is independent of the individual's subjective morality and consequently objective and 'true' in nature.


Sorry, I had to review my thought.

JustErin said:

I agree with every word of this.

so ... when I don't like the way my wife plays chess, I can go play chess with someone else but when I don't like the way my wife sucks dick I can't have someone else give me head ?


:eyebrows:

rite

xplnyrslf said:

I was not saying it was the woman's fault, only that she sometimes plays in a part in it. Some women know a man is cheating and put up with it. Some women get married and decide to stop having sex altogether with their husbands and decide not to clue their husbands in on that fact. Some men are just dogs. Some women treat their husbands like a paycheck and nothing more. None of these are good excuses but as I have been the other woman, I can tell you what I've heard.

In a perfect world, couples would communicate and work their problems out or the cheater would just leave if he or she wants to fuck someone else. Sometimes people fall in love with other people and just getting up and leaving is not an option.

BlueZebra said:

I don't think any of us are saying that.

Stymie said:

Actually, you did:and I quote.....
"I will try to control myself but please know that men are out there actively seeking other women for a reason. So, when folks wanna blame the other person, those they are of course at fault, take a look at yourselves as well".

Not to besiege you with information, but I put the time in...

http://www.webmd.com/sex-...eat?page=2
[Edited 6/6/08 17:41pm]

xplnyrslf said:

AND again I say, she has o take a look at herself to see if she played a PART.

NDRU said:

it's the only option in my experience. it just depends on which man.

Stymie said:

I didn't see "part" in there.....

xplnyrslf said:

Whatever. does it change your response in any way?

JustErin said:

then there should be an end to someone taking half or all possessions in a divorce IMO - that shit is rank

horatio said:

You know, I've never understood why that even happens.