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PrintableDreamLife said: I read something interesting last night, a new take on an old twist. lol It went something like this: When Jesus said that I am the way and the light, follow me, he was not saying be my followers, but rather saying, do as I do, live by my example.
Let's think about it in this way. A truly spiritual man would not put himself above another, but rather he would see himself as an equal to all others. Jesus saying that "I am the way and the light" by many Christians is viewed more in a way that Jesus is somehow better than them. But Jesus also said that "I and my Father are one, and you are my brethern." To me this all points to Jesus pointing out to us that we are all one with the Father, and that if we live life in the way that he showed us, we will realize that oneness. Throughout time the many teachers that have been sent to us have showed us how to live, not told us to worship them, but to rather worship God. I think this is the problem that I have with the mainstay type of Christianity. It is not God they worship, but rather Jesus. It is almost as though they have forgotten that God exists, and only see the Son. I cannot imagine that a truly spiritual man such as Jesus would put himself between man and God. He knew that nothing could come between man and God "I and my Father are one." And yet mainstay Christianity states that the only way to God is through Christ. I think that somehow that thinking got warped through time. I believe that "through Christ" is actually through the Spirit, a Spirit that we all share and are a part of. But it is as though man has said, "Here I am, there is Jesus, and there is God. Now to get to God, I have to get through Jesus. I have to worship Jesus and praise Him and be saved by Him before I can ever have a relationship with God." Something that is forgotten within that mix is that God has said, "Though shoult have no other gods before me" and "I am all that is." Well how can we get through anyone else if God is all there is, and how can we worship another before God when God said to have no other gods before Him? I'm going on a rant here. lol Sorry about that. I just think that "through Christ" means through Christlike actions, and through our higher selves. Christ said that "I am with you always." To me that means that He is never separate from us and that to get through Him, we only have to look within (Christ Consciousness). All of this is a part of us, it's not separate from us. Christ is within us, God is within us. And through Christ is through our actions of love. Just my take on this. DreamLife, I think that's part of it. Not enough people, like you said, see following Christ's example as a call to service. But, make no mistake: The reason so many people sought to stone Christ was because of His assertion that He was the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, God in the flesh there to reconcile man unto Himself. He was, as you say, calling for His followers to emulate His life of service. But, He was also asserting -- through His miracles, declarations, death and resurrection -- that He was God and the pathway to be reconciled unto God. [This message was edited Thu Nov 7 9:27:12 PST 2002 by ThreadBare] | |
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IceNine said: SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. Thank you Ice, You speak the most sense here, Peace to you x | |
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IceNine said: SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. But he still did not answer my question... He said he did not believe in God...he only believed in good... So I asked him...Since he, himself said he believed in good, I would like to hear what his definition of good is. I don't remember him mentioning ethics...and as you mentioned...things like these are very subjective... Since you are here, what do you consider good?... just you personally...not "case scenarios". Just briefly...if possible. So...how's everybody doing?  | |
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Cloudbuster said: IceNine said: SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. Thank you Ice, You speak the most sense here, Peace to you x As I just stated to Ice, you yourself made the assertion that you do not believe in god...you only believe in good. That is fine...I am not challenging your belief. I simply request clarification... What to you is this good that you believe in? As Ice mentioned it can be very subjective...so only YOU can answer for you. I am interested in what you are saying when you say..."I believe in good.". Can you tell me, briefly? So...how's everybody doing? | |
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SensualMelody said: IceNine said: SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. But he still did not answer my question... He said he did not believe in God...he only believed in good... So I asked him...Since he, himself said he believed in good, I would like to hear what his definition of good is. I don't remember him mentioning ethics...and as you mentioned...things like these are very subjective... Since you are here, what do you consider good?... just you personally...not "case scenarios". Just briefly...if possible. Oddly enough... in public forums, anyone can post things relating to anything that is posted by anyone, therefore your bolding of "he, himself" and things was pointless and somewhat smart-assed. Now, for my VERY short answer. Ethics always comes into play when you mention good and evil. Good is what is RIGHT, while bad is what is WRONG... pretty simple idea, huh? "Good" and "bad" are subjective, just as your attempt at being a smart-ass a moment ago might have not been a real attempt and I might be viewing it subjectively and thinking that you were trying to be a real asshole. You see the problem with subjectivity? Allow me to explain the necessity of ethics in "good" by way of definition: eth·ics Pronunciation Key (thk) n. A set of principles of right conduct. A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain” (Gregg Easterbrook). ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy. WOULD you like another? Okay: ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics. ANOTHER definition: ethics n 1: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong [syn: ethical motive, morals, morality] 2: the philosophical study of moral values and rules [syn: moral philosophy] WELL, fuck... how about another: ethics(used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy. Since nature is neither "good" nor "bad," it is necessary to accept the fact that "good" and "bad" only apply to human actions, as nature is totally unbiased. Since things external to humans are only "good" or "bad" in relation to humanity, it is necessary to admit that there is no universal concept of "good" and "bad" and that all concepts of them are bound up in personal ethics. EDIT: added further explanation. ... [This message was edited Fri Nov 8 6:13:38 PST 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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"Good" is too often defined in a circular fashion. For example, "good is doing right." This adds no extra meaning. To get at one's ethics, you must search for the standard of good. For christians, it is the commandments and the examples set forth by jesus. For atheists, it varies, depending on their philosophy. Subjective or not, it is a valuable exercise to search for the ultimate good, from which all other values flow.
I believe that human life is the standard of good. Not just staying alive, but living a life proper to a conceptual being, i.e., not a brutish animal or a mindless follower, but a life of active thinking, responsibility, self-esteem, kindness, and creativity, which improve my condition and the conditions of those I care about. That kind of life. More fundamentally, the ultimate good, in my world, is truth and happiness. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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SensualMelody said: Cloudbuster said: IceNine said: SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. Thank you Ice, You speak the most sense here, Peace to you x As I just stated to Ice, you yourself made the assertion that you do not believe in god...you only believe in good. That is fine...I am not challenging your belief. I simply request clarification... What to you is this good that you believe in? As Ice mentioned it can be very subjective...so only YOU can answer for you. I am interested in what you are saying when you say..."I believe in good.". Can you tell me, briefly? I don't believe in god, nor do I believe in "good." I believe that "good" is a human idea of what is right or pleasing and it is totally subjective. I believe in MY idea of what is right and wrong, pleasing and painful, etc., but I would not subscribe to a universal "right and wrong" or "good and bad." I believe that everyone should live a life that is governed by ethical principles... the very fact is that even serial killers have ethics, they are just skewed from the norm of society. I certainly do agree with utilitarian ideas and I believe that the greater good is that which aims to better the lives of the greater number of people. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Truth is an objective good.
Ice doesn't respond: http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_320724 Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said: Truth is an objective good.
Ice doesn't respond: http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_320724 I responded quite a lot until the discussion had pretty much reached a conclusion... ask me a specific question and I will reply again... SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: teller said: Truth is an objective good.
Ice doesn't respond: http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_320724 I responded quite a lot until the discussion had pretty much reached a conclusion... ask me a specific question and I will reply again... I suppose you could just say that truth-avoidance is a virtue to some folks and therefore it is subjective, but don't such people invariably end up incompetent, miserable, or dead? Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said: IceNine said: teller said: Truth is an objective good.
Ice doesn't respond: http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_320724 I responded quite a lot until the discussion had pretty much reached a conclusion... ask me a specific question and I will reply again... I suppose you could just say that truth-avoidance is a virtue to some folks and therefore it is subjective, but don't such people invariably end up incompetent, miserable, or dead? I would say that seeking the "truth" is a very strong drive in humans, but people who think that they have found the "truth" are misled. The "truth" depends upon what one is searching for... First we must define "truth" and decide if "truth" is universal or localized. If "truth" is universal, I suspect that it will never be found. If the "truth" that is sought is a micro-level truth, maybe we can know something about it and arrive at "truth." We KNOW that 1+1=2 because we have strict definitions of the value of 1 and the value of 2. Since we cannot have such strict definitions on matters of spirituality, ethics, or anything else of a non-subjective nature, the search for universal truth is still subjective, as the searchers will have to set out to look for something of their conception. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Bump... SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine - You rock! | |
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Cloudbuster said: IceNine - You rock!
*In my best Elvis voice* "Thank ya... thank ya' very much..." SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: Cloudbuster said: IceNine - You rock!
*In my best Elvis voice* "Thank ya... thank ya' very much..." well... lookithear!  someone u have something in common with! ya'll two r both dead  | |
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RaneStarr said: IceNine said: Cloudbuster said: IceNine - You rock!
*In my best Elvis voice* "Thank ya... thank ya' very much..." well... lookithear! someone u have something in common with! ya'll two r both dead "Ya'll two r both dead" ??? You're twisted! | |
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Cloudbuster said: RaneStarr said: IceNine said: Cloudbuster said: IceNine - You rock!
*In my best Elvis voice* "Thank ya... thank ya' very much..." well... lookithear! someone u have something in common with! ya'll two r both dead "Ya'll two r both dead" ??? You're twisted! Ice and Elvis  | |
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How is Ice dead?
U killed him with the power of the mind, huh? | |
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Cloudbuster said: How is Ice dead?
U killed him with the power of the mind, huh? How is Elvis dead? I feel pretty, that's enough | |
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servantsofpuas said: Cloudbuster said: How is Ice dead?
U killed him with the power of the mind, huh? How is Elvis dead? lol, serv,,, eye must admit, u r a trip | |
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servantsofpuas said: Cloudbuster said: How is Ice dead?
U killed him with the power of the mind, huh? How is Elvis dead? Elvis ain't dead, he lives in my pocket! | |
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Cloudbuster said: servantsofpuas said: Cloudbuster said: How is Ice dead?
U killed him with the power of the mind, huh? How is Elvis dead? Elvis ain't dead, he lives in my pocket! The King lives on in the hearts and minds of his millions of fans. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Really late to this topic but jumping in anyway.
I used to be one of those people who was quick to bash Christianity. All of the negatives espoused here I was once in agreement with. Not anymore. Christianity is not the bane of human existance that it's often thought to be. If you look at the religion from a historical standpoint, you'll see that it was quite advanced for it's time. If you could go back in time and see the daily lives of the people who lived during Jesus's lifetime, you'd understand what a brave and revolutionary thinker he was. He was so brave and revolutionary, that his views got him killed! What's happened to Christianity is what's happened to many a good thing that has come along in human history: misunderstanding, misinterpretaion, and politics. What's important is to focus on the ideas that Jesus tried to get across to people. Those ideas were brought forth by him because he understood that if you change your thinking and your heart, your actions will automatically change as well. With that in turn, you wind up changing the world. For those who are still where I was, I implore you to give the teachings of Christ a fair chance. Look into the real history of the church, the bible, and the society that he lived in during his lifetime. I assure you that you will no longer be so quick to assign only the negatives to Christianity. [This message was edited Sat Nov 9 6:54:03 PST 2002 by Jade] The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon...dammit! | |
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 jade | |
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RaneStarr said: jadeCome up with some of your own thoughts instead of hugging and thread-jacking. I'd love to see what YOU have to say. -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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Jade said: Really late to this topic but jumping in anyway.
Jesus is without a doubt a great character. I'm not a christian, but I always marvelled at how consistently loving Jesus was. He never got mad at depraved people; he always understood how difficult it was to be virtuous and was so generous and forgiving with his heart. Following his example has actually helped me to end certain battles with certain people in my life. Thumbs up.
I used to be one of those people who was quick to bash Christianity. All of the negatives espoused here I was once in agreement with. Not anymore. Christianity is not the bane of human existance that it's often thought to be. If you look at the religion from a historical standpoint, you'll see that it was quite advanced for it's time. If you could go back in time and see the daily lives of the people who lived during Jesus's lifetime, you'd understand what a brave and revolutionary thinker he was. He was so brave and revolutionary, that his views got him killed! What's happened to Christianity is what's happened to many a good thing that has come along in human history: misunderstanding, misinterpretaion, and politics. What's important is to focus on the ideas that Jesus tried to get across to people. Those ideas were brought forth by him because he understood that if you change your thinking and your heart, your actions will automatically change as well. With that in turn, you wind up changing the world. For those who are still where I was, I implore you to give the teachings of Christ a fair chance. Look into the real history of the church, the bible, and the society that he lived in during his lifetime. I assure you that you will no longer be so quick to assign only the negatives to Christianity. [This message was edited Sat Nov 9 6:54:03 PST 2002 by Jade] I really think there was no need to depict him walking on water. He was really quite amazing in his own right. Now the "religion" of Christianity...yes, the politics. It's an organization run by flawed people with flawed results. Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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teller said I really think there was no need to depict him walking on water. He was really quite amazing in his own right.
But would Christianity have been so spectacularly successful if Jesus had not been depicted in this way? Probably [actually this is pure conjecture] well over 99% of conversions, say until 1900, were at least partly connected to these apparently well documented miracle stories. If Jesus had been portrayed as 'a really bright, innovative thinker' would we know anything about him today? He would probably have remained a shadowy figure about whom scholars write learned articles that gather dust in university libraries. Compare the case of Zeno, the founder of Stoicism. His ideas were at least as revolutionary as those of Jesus, yet all his works are lost (I'm not sure, did he write anything but the "Republic"?). Christianity seems to have appealed to the ordinary person in a way Greek philosophy did not, like many other eastern religions in the Roman empire. Now, prove that without Christianity Rome would not have succumbed to the invading "barbarian" nations (ie, prove that Gibbon was wrong). Prove also that without the christianized kingdoms of Europe, and their incessent warefare, we would have discovered America, or sent men to the moon, or invented the internet (of course no one can; there is only one way to prove a negative, and it cannot be applied here). All of these 'what if' questions seem to me fun, but idle. Compare Toynbee's article speculating about a world in which Alexander the Great did not die in Babylon, but lived to conquer Carthage and Rome, with Jesus left to watch the steam trains running through Palestine ca. 30 AD. To state that a non-Christian world would have been better than a Christian one is simply making a non provable assertion. Perhaps in the future, if quantum computers ever become a reality, or if we are ever able to communicate with 'parallel universes', we will be able to 'back up history', and see what might have happened. BTW this post may contain bullshit | |
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Good point...gotta sell it to the kiddies so toss in a few miracles I guess... Fear is the mind-killer. | |
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BattierBeMyDaddy said: RaneStarr said: jadeCome up with some of your own thoughts instead of hugging and thread-jacking. I'd love to see what YOU have to say. battier, eye'm shy and eye have a very passive personality that is why eye don't post or make threads or answer any questions [This message was edited Sun Nov 10 12:16:23 PST 2002 by RaneStarr] | |
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RaneStarr said: BattierBeMyDaddy said: RaneStarr said: jadeCome up with some of your own thoughts instead of hugging and thread-jacking. I'd love to see what YOU have to say. battier, eye'm shy and eye have a very passive personality that is why eye don't post or make threads or answer any questions
[This message was edited Sun Nov 10 12:16:23 PST 2002 by RaneStarr] Is that what you call it?
I liked your last post better: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL as if eye haven't. Which, to answer that, you have not, you contributed to my talk of "mierda" and dead Elvis. I know you can do better than that. -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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