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Christianity and Progress Have you ever thought of how much religion has retarded progress over the last 1500 years? I bet it's cost us 300 years worth of advancements. The more I read about it, I really think we could've had an industrial revolution in the 1200s. We could be in the Star Trek era by now!
The population in the 1200s was rapidly increasing, there was a lot of trade, and it was basically a parallel of the early to mid 1700s. But it never took off. Some of it was probably because of feudalism, but I'll bet a lot of it was religious close-mindedness branding anybody innovative as a witch. -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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Christianity has certainly been detrimental to the scientific development throughout time and it has been a force for great evil in the form of the inquisition and the crusades. I also have a HUGE problem with the idea of missionaries...
This is not to say that all christians are bad, but I do not believe that religion has always been a force for good. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: I also have a HUGE problem with the idea of missionaries...
You and me both! -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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Battier is a mierdo de Data. | |
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2the9s said: Battier is a mierdo de Data.
It's MIERDA, dumbass! MIERDA MIERDA MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDAAA! -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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BattierBeMyDaddy said: It's MIERDA, dumbass!
MIERDA MIERDA MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDAAA! You should know. heh heh | |
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2the9s said: BattierBeMyDaddy said: It's MIERDA, dumbass!
MIERDA MIERDA MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDAAA! You should know. heh heh 2the9s es mierda! 2the9s es...mierda de perro. -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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BattierBeMyDaddy said: IceNine said: I also have a HUGE problem with the idea of missionaries...
You and me both! The missionary is a kinder face of the old crusaders with a little less rape, pillage and murder. Now rather than through forceful belief change they can hide behind charitable deed and convert the vulnerable grateful. | |
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It's too easy to look at the past and to claim our superiority, we're so intelligent, tolerant etc
I think that I would have been a dirty bastard during the inquisition, torturing the poor witches hehe | |
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Christianity and progress,
those two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. | |
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My question is this, would we have been able to handle all of that technology at an earlier time? I think there is still some technology that we can't handle today. For instance, all the weaponry that we've developed. You just know there is someone somewhere that is just itching to push a button and annihilate the human race. We're not prepared to face the responsibility of that technology even today imo. People still react from an ego standpoint and until we get past that, I think we're headed down a one way street the wrong way with no place to turn around. I agree that religion has delayed our progress, but in this case I do not see it as being a bad thing. [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 5:44:22 PST 2002 by DreamLife] The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly. ~ Richard Bach "Illusions" | |
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BattierBeMyDaddy said: 2the9s said: Battier is a mierdo de Data.
It's MIERDA, dumbass! MIERDA MIERDA MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDA! MIERDAAA! lol that means poop in Spanish SILLY! hehehehehehe! | |
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Who just decided to vote BBMD's wonderful thread down with all those hurtful zero star ratings?
Zero star ratings make baby Jesus cry. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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I agree: The system of organized religion has been a vehicle for a lot of harm, abuse, intolerant behavior and, in some cases, hatred. It's too bad, when you consider that Christ is progressive -- so progressive, He was considered radical during His earthly ministry: He put people first, not the status quo.
The Bible, in Christ's characterizations of the Pharisees & Sadducees, suggests that sort of hypocritical, ego-focused religious system is contrary to what Christ came to establish. That's a main reason so many people opposed Him when he ministered and proclaimed Himself the Son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish Scripture: It meant, quite plainly, the obsolescence of a society (not just religion-wise, but class-wise, too). Which leads me to believe that the spirit of true Christian ministry is seen less in the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" form many give it (especially those often referred to as the Religious Right) and is seen more in the model of Christ's ministry: the needs of people. When Christ saw people hungry, He fed them. He also told them to sin no more, true, because a Holy God requires holiness in His followers. But that sort of transition from sin is borne out of the transforming relationship one has with God, not some dogmatic "Dos and Don'ts list" belonging to culturally ignorant idealogues. My perspective is such: Do I believe, as a Bible-believing follower of Christ, that I He's the answer to all that's wrong in the world? Yes. But, in that same Bible, Christ is very clear about how His followers are to minister: in love, compassion and humility. I'd say, particularly in American society, too many folks trip on their church membership (much like the Pharisees) instead of being loving, compassionate, humble and justice-minded servants of Christ and their neighbor. If we saw more action from the latter, then the notions of being Christian and progressive might not seem so mutually exclusive. | |
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ThreadBare said: I agree: The system of organized religion has been a vehicle for a lot of harm, abuse, intolerant behavior and, in some cases, hatred. It's too bad, when you consider that Christ is progressive -- so progressive, He was considered radical during His earthly ministry: He put people first, not the status quo.
The Bible, in Christ's characterizations of the Pharisees & Sadducees, suggests that sort of hypocritical, ego-focused religious system is contrary to what Christ came to establish. That's a main reason so many people opposed Him when he ministered and proclaimed Himself the Son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish Scripture: It meant, quite plainly, the obsolescence of a society (not just religion-wise, but class-wise, too). Which leads me to believe that the spirit of true Christian ministry is seen less in the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" form many give it (especially those often referred to as the Religious Right) and is seen more in the model of Christ's ministry: the needs of people. When Christ saw people hungry, He fed them. He also told them to sin no more, true, because a Holy God requires holiness in His followers. But that sort of transition from sin is borne out of the transforming relationship one has with God, not some dogmatic "Dos and Don'ts list" belonging to culturally ignorant idealogues. My perspective is such: Do I believe, as a Bible-believing follower of Christ, that I He's the answer to all that's wrong in the world? Yes. But, in that same Bible, Christ is very clear about how His followers are to minister: in love, compassion and humility. I'd say, particularly in American society, too many folks trip on their church membership (much like the Pharisees) instead of being loving, compassionate, humble and justice-minded servants of Christ and their neighbor. If we saw more action from the latter, then the notions of being Christian and progressive might not seem so mutually exclusive. Man... I gotta say, ThreadBare... I really respect your position and that was one of the most intelligent things that I have seen posted from a christian on here and there have been some really good posts from others as well... this was just such a great look at Jesus as a caring person rather than a finger-pointing figure. If only all christians could see the vision of Jesus that you see. ... [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 10:29:28 PST 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: Who just decided to vote BBMD's wonderful thread down with all those hurtful zero star ratings?
Zero star ratings make baby Jesus cry. Ice, could u please tell baby Jesus that God loves him, that should put a smile back on his 2000 year old face. | |
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IceNine said: ThreadBare said: I agree: The system of organized religion has been a vehicle for a lot of harm, abuse, intolerant behavior and, in some cases, hatred. It's too bad, when you consider that Christ is progressive -- so progressive, He was considered radical during His earthly ministry: He put people first, not the status quo.
The Bible, in Christ's characterizations of the Pharisees & Sadducees, suggests that sort of hypocritical, ego-focused religious system is contrary to what Christ came to establish. That's a main reason so many people opposed Him when he ministered and proclaimed Himself the Son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish Scripture: It meant, quite plainly, the obsolescence of a society (not just religion-wise, but class-wise, too). Which leads me to believe that the spirit of true Christian ministry is seen less in the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" form many give it (especially those often referred to as the Religious Right) and is seen more in the model of Christ's ministry: the needs of people. When Christ saw people hungry, He fed them. He also told them to sin no more, true, because a Holy God requires holiness in His followers. But that sort of transition from sin is borne out of the transforming relationship one has with God, not some dogmatic "Dos and Don'ts list" belonging to culturally ignorant idealogues. My perspective is such: Do I believe, as a Bible-believing follower of Christ, that I He's the answer to all that's wrong in the world? Yes. But, in that same Bible, Christ is very clear about how His followers are to minister: in love, compassion and humility. I'd say, particularly in American society, too many folks trip on their church membership (much like the Pharisees) instead of being loving, compassionate, humble and justice-minded servants of Christ and their neighbor. If we saw more action from the latter, then the notions of being Christian and progressive might not seem so mutually exclusive. Man... I gotta say, ThreadBare... I really respect your position and that was one of the most intelligent things that I have seen posted from a christian on here and there have been some really good posts from others as well... this was just such a great look at Jesus as a caring person rather than a finger-pointing figure. If only all christians could see the vision of Jesus that you see. ... [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 10:29:28 PST 2002 by IceNine] Thanks, man. If only I could be more consistent in applying that to my life, too. That's the challenge: deeds. peace. | |
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Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. | |
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jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. Why thank you! If you support religion then you support the entire structure...even on a subconcious level...that to me is stupidity. | |
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You seriously telling me that religion doesn't spawn fascism?
Fascism 1. The totalitarian principles and organization of the extreme right-wing nationalist movement in Italy (1922-43). 2. (also fascism) any similar nationalist and authoritarian movement. So what is religion if it isn't an authoritarian movement? I think that makes you more stupid than me! [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 11:24:15 PST 2002 by Cloudbuster] | |
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jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. Are you calling ME stupid, jnoel?  -------
A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti... "I've just had an apostrophe!" "I think you mean an epiphany..." | |
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Cloudbuster said: jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. Why thank you! If you support religion then you support the entire structure...even on a subconcious level...that to me is stupidity. so basically they weren't differences between the jewish, the christians anti-nazis burnt and the nazis, both fascists 
and I'm tired to see the words "fascism/ fascist" apply to anything by anyone [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 13:47:27 PST 2002 by jnoel] | |
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BattierBeMyDaddy said: Are you calling ME stupid, jnoel? Nah,you know I scare you 
there's an old theory that says that there's a progression in human knowledge, 1st:sorcery , polytheism, monotheism and then science it's outdated, things are much more complex, but there's certainly a certain way... | |
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ThreadBare said: I agree: The system of organized religion has been a vehicle for a lot of harm, abuse, intolerant behavior and, in some cases, hatred. It's too bad, when you consider that Christ is progressive -- so progressive, He was considered radical during His earthly ministry: He put people first, not the status quo.
The Bible, in Christ's characterizations of the Pharisees & Sadducees, suggests that sort of hypocritical, ego-focused religious system is contrary to what Christ came to establish. That's a main reason so many people opposed Him when he ministered and proclaimed Himself the Son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish Scripture: It meant, quite plainly, the obsolescence of a society (not just religion-wise, but class-wise, too). Which leads me to believe that the spirit of true Christian ministry is seen less in the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" form many give it (especially those often referred to as the Religious Right) and is seen more in the model of Christ's ministry: the needs of people. When Christ saw people hungry, He fed them. He also told them to sin no more, true, because a Holy God requires holiness in His followers. But that sort of transition from sin is borne out of the transforming relationship one has with God, not some dogmatic "Dos and Don'ts list" belonging to culturally ignorant idealogues. My perspective is such: Do I believe, as a Bible-believing follower of Christ, that I He's the answer to all that's wrong in the world? Yes. But, in that same Bible, Christ is very clear about how His followers are to minister: in love, compassion and humility. I'd say, particularly in American society, too many folks trip on their church membership (much like the Pharisees) instead of being loving, compassionate, humble and justice-minded servants of Christ and their neighbor. If we saw more action from the latter, then the notions of being Christian and progressive might not seem so mutually exclusive. ThreadBare, you hit at one of the main problems that I see in the perception that many have of "religion"; Christianity in particular. There are two entities... Christianity...a concept which denotes..."followers of Christ or ones who learn from Christ; and Christendom, which is a religio-political system based on fluctuating principles that tend to confuse and divide. When I read a lot of comments here from all angles, I see the damage that Christendom has done. True Christianity, however, continues to produce caring people with high moral standards who love all people just as Jesus did. So...how's everybody doing? | |
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IceNine said: ThreadBare said: I agree: The system of organized religion has been a vehicle for a lot of harm, abuse, intolerant behavior and, in some cases, hatred. It's too bad, when you consider that Christ is progressive -- so progressive, He was considered radical during His earthly ministry: He put people first, not the status quo.
The Bible, in Christ's characterizations of the Pharisees & Sadducees, suggests that sort of hypocritical, ego-focused religious system is contrary to what Christ came to establish. That's a main reason so many people opposed Him when he ministered and proclaimed Himself the Son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish Scripture: It meant, quite plainly, the obsolescence of a society (not just religion-wise, but class-wise, too). Which leads me to believe that the spirit of true Christian ministry is seen less in the "thou shalt/thou shalt not" form many give it (especially those often referred to as the Religious Right) and is seen more in the model of Christ's ministry: the needs of people. When Christ saw people hungry, He fed them. He also told them to sin no more, true, because a Holy God requires holiness in His followers. But that sort of transition from sin is borne out of the transforming relationship one has with God, not some dogmatic "Dos and Don'ts list" belonging to culturally ignorant idealogues. My perspective is such: Do I believe, as a Bible-believing follower of Christ, that I He's the answer to all that's wrong in the world? Yes. But, in that same Bible, Christ is very clear about how His followers are to minister: in love, compassion and humility. I'd say, particularly in American society, too many folks trip on their church membership (much like the Pharisees) instead of being loving, compassionate, humble and justice-minded servants of Christ and their neighbor. If we saw more action from the latter, then the notions of being Christian and progressive might not seem so mutually exclusive. Man... I gotta say, ThreadBare... I really respect your position and that was one of the most intelligent things that I have seen posted from a christian on here and there have been some really good posts from others as well... this was just such a great look at Jesus as a caring person rather than a finger-pointing figure. If only all christians could see the vision of Jesus that you see. ... [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 10:29:28 PST 2002 by IceNine] WOW, I'm agree with ICENINE...but Christians, and I'm a Chrisitan, they never really look at the ministry of Jesus and really examine why he was killed...PROGRESSION. If we as Christians did what Jesus actually teaches, we wouldn't have some many who come against us. | |
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jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. Why thank you! If you support religion then you support the entire structure...even on a subconcious level...that to me is stupidity. so basically they weren't differences between the jewish, the christians anti-nazis burnt and the nazis, both fascists
and I'm tired to see the words "fascism/ fascist" apply to anything by anyone [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 13:47:27 PST 2002 by jnoel] Funny that b'cos in my opinion an ignorant pompous ass would resort to name calling when not having a valid argument. On some levels i agree with what you are saying and i don't believe for one minute that all religious people are bad. I went to church myself for the first 20 years of my life and had some very good christian friends who were well meaning and truly decent people. For me, however, i started to look at the bigger picture rather than just singing hymns and studying scripture and decided that i could no longer be supportive of a regime that to my mind has its foundations in some extremely fascist (yes, that word again!) views. Whether you like it or not, if you support a religion (and that's not to say all of them but certainly most) you are inadvertently supporting the entire structure which continues to create divisions in people thanks in part to disgusting narrow-minded politics and the belief that there is only one true god. I myself no longer believe in god (or a god) anymore, i believe in good. That is the way forward. For me at least. | |
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I read something interesting last night, a new take on an old twist. lol It went something like this: When Jesus said that I am the way and the light, follow me, he was not saying be my followers, but rather saying, do as I do, live by my example.
Let's think about it in this way. A truly spiritual man would not put himself above another, but rather he would see himself as an equal to all others. Jesus saying that "I am the way and the light" by many Christians is viewed more in a way that Jesus is somehow better than them. But Jesus also said that "I and my Father are one, and you are my brethern." To me this all points to Jesus pointing out to us that we are all one with the Father, and that if we live life in the way that he showed us, we will realize that oneness. Throughout time the many teachers that have been sent to us have showed us how to live, not told us to worship them, but to rather worship God. I think this is the problem that I have with the mainstay type of Christianity. It is not God they worship, but rather Jesus. It is almost as though they have forgotten that God exists, and only see the Son. I cannot imagine that a truly spiritual man such as Jesus would put himself between man and God. He knew that nothing could come between man and God "I and my Father are one." And yet mainstay Christianity states that the only way to God is through Christ. I think that somehow that thinking got warped through time. I believe that "through Christ" is actually through the Spirit, a Spirit that we all share and are a part of. But it is as though man has said, "Here I am, there is Jesus, and there is God. Now to get to God, I have to get through Jesus. I have to worship Jesus and praise Him and be saved by Him before I can ever have a relationship with God." Something that is forgotten within that mix is that God has said, "Though shoult have no other gods before me" and "I am all that is." Well how can we get through anyone else if God is all there is, and how can we worship another before God when God said to have no other gods before Him? I'm going on a rant here. lol Sorry about that. I just think that "through Christ" means through Christlike actions, and through our higher selves. Christ said that "I am with you always." To me that means that He is never separate from us and that to get through Him, we only have to look within (Christ Consciousness). All of this is a part of us, it's not separate from us. Christ is within us, God is within us. And through Christ is through our actions of love. Just my take on this. The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly. ~ Richard Bach "Illusions" | |
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Cloudbuster said: jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: jnoel said: Cloudbuster said: Christianity and progress,
that's the proof that atheism doesn't exclude stupiditythose two words should never be written in the same sentence. All organized religion prevents progress which is why we still livin' in the dark ages. If u dig religion then u dig hate, fascism (homophobia/sexism/racism), greed and war as they all stem from it. Why thank you! If you support religion then you support the entire structure...even on a subconcious level...that to me is stupidity. so basically they weren't differences between the jewish, the christians anti-nazis burnt and the nazis, both fascists
and I'm tired to see the words "fascism/ fascist" apply to anything by anyone [This message was edited Wed Nov 6 13:47:27 PST 2002 by jnoel] I myself no longer believe in god (or a god) anymore, i believe in good. That is the way forward. For me at least. This has a good sound...but could you be more specific? What is good? Are you referring to the doing of good to others? The exercising of good conduct? Total goodness? Moral goodness? The doing of whatever feels good? And who decides what good is? It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. So...how's everybody doing? | |
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SensualMelody said: It is difficult to speak of good without referencing god... same basic words...God is good. It is very possible to be ethical without the need for a god, and the definition of good has nothing do with god. Good is, however, a very subjective thing, just as is the idea of a god and the properties of that god, therefore it is just as well to speak only of good as to speak of a god. SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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"Oye,
I knew I shouldn't have dropped outa science class" | |
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