Oh my God. The jabs Karen used to take at Leslie.

"Shouldn't you be in a tree making cookies?"

"Leslie, you turn more and more into a woman every time I see you."


I'm paraphrasing.

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

"How are things in Ankleville?"





Leslie : "We'll be celebrating the death of my w..."

Benji: "khm..life"

L: "the LIFE, the life of my wife"

rushing07 said:

Beverly Leslie and his "business associate Benji" were HILARIOUS!

rushing07 said:

And who can forget Molly Shannon on there.

I love this show so much. Jack is my favorite


[Edited 5/5/08 10:04am]

PurpleRighteous1 said:

2 of the best scenes ever!!!!

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

i absolutely loved their scenes together

jack kills me.

on the new southern girl (britney): "and she's british"

I love the episode when Britney was on. I can't the clip I want tho

"My real name is Peg and I'm a hardcore lesbian. I'm into leather play butch black girls, pulling the blinds, skunking and pooterballin'. Whatever you got I will smoke it, eat it, or ride it baby"

PurpleRighteous1 said:

I swear my jaw hit the floor when she said that.

Will & Grace was (usually) moderately funny, but as for being some sort of major progress for gays on TV, I just don't see the hype. The characters are nothing more than ridiculous stereotypes, and Karen is nothing more than a yankee rip-off of Ab Fab's Patsy. Ellen really paved the way in terms of the gay sitcom, building a show around her persona and not a cliche.

For progressive attitudes towards gay relationships on TV, I am really enjoying Brothers & Sisters at the moment. The gay characters actually have dignity and some interesting things going on in their lives (you know, besides fucking, clothing, bitchy comebacks, Madonna, and whatever else it was that Jack occupied his time with).

And, for the kind of bullshit we *don't* need, we need look no further than the gay couple on Desperate Houswives.
[Edited 5/5/08 13:50pm]

This show is hella funny, but for some reason I rarely watch it

but when I do, I love it...reminds me of me and my best friend

VoicesCarry said:

I totally understand what you're saying BUT I enjoy the sissy. If it's done right. I like Jack's portrayal.

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with feminine or sissy. I just take issue when:

a) The one-joke stereotype always prevails when such a character is written for TV or film, and

b) There is a disproportionate representation of this stereotype in the mainstream media because it's positioned as something for straights to laugh at and not to understand. Having gay characters on TV doesn't help us if the gay characters are one-dimensional and stigmatize the entire community for a mainstream straight viewership. Personally, I cringe when Jack walks in the room.

Plenty of gay comedians (Harvey Fierstien comes immediately to mind) have given humanity and depth to what, in the hands of other writers, usually winds up being trash.

I'm glad that we are slowly moving away from the four dominant gay stereotypes in the media:

1. Bitchy, flaming queens with no brains
2. Ubersluts
3. AIDS patients
4. Some combination of 1-3.
[Edited 5/5/08 14:14pm]

VoicesCarry said:

Point taken. Yes.

That movie BOAT PARTY or whatever it was called got on my nerves. The one with Cuba Gooding Jr. I know that it had good intentions but I didn't like it.

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

I haven't seen it but I remember the trailers. Cuba Gooding Jr. usually disturbs me in ANY context, though.

VoicesCarry said:

Yep, I kinda feel the same way. It's unfortunate 'cause he seems like a good guy.

VoicesCarry said:

True, true. But it seems that this is how sitcoms have always worked.

Good Times
The Jeffersons
I Love Lucy
Honeymooners
+ many more

all based on stereotypes,
with stock characters
and a familiar plot.

And think of comedy skits like those
from Mad Tv or SNL.

It seems that all groups are ridiculed in those shows.
Most of the time by the manner of exaggeration
or stereotyping.

Although not without its faults
"Will & Grace" have put "the gayz" (Karen's voice) onto the tv screens
of ppl around the world who other wise might be little interested
in familiarizing themselves with this group.
They did try to sneak in a couple of moral lessons
along the way.

If anything I thought 'Friends' did more harm with its constant
Chandler acting "gay" puns.
[Edited 5/5/08 14:50pm]

rushing07 said:

But if the characters are not representative of the community, then the mainstream only gets what they think they know about a certain type of minority, but yet never gains a deeper understanding or appreciation. I cringe at the thought of anyone saying to me "I know how you gays are, I saw how that Jack guy was...).

Another show I really cringe at the way in which the gay topic is approached is Desperate housewives. They approach it as though the women have only seen gays on TV like Will and Grace. Their reaction to gay men is pathetic.

I do take issue with the examples you have at the top there. I really thinkthose shows esp Good Times and The Jeffersons tried to break the stereotypes with those characters, though at the same time stripping away the realness of their life (esp Good Times). Sure you had JJ who was most typical, but the rest of the characters were NOT typical. In fact the actors that played the mother and father didn't like the fact that the stereotypical character was getting more story time and eventuall left the show because of it.

superspaceboy said:

What is up with DH, anyway? As if those bitches have never encountered gay men before. Susan lookin' at the gay couple like they're martians or something. Then the gays do nothing but whine about an ugly-ass metal fountain before disappearing for the majority of the season, only to return so they can be pawns in some bitch-play the girls are cookin' up. Colour me unimpressed with the supposed amazing writing on this show.

But hey, this is the same show that sent the only black people on the block packing after one season because they couldn't come up with a better storyline for them.
[Edited 5/5/08 17:03pm]

the best gay sitcom was Golden Girls.

MIGUELGOMEZ said:

That episode is on right now on Lifetime