Kinda off topic, but don't you think it's Chicken CRAP to org. note someone when there's a thread already posted in regards to the subject? Why can't we just discuss it where it started instead of harrassing others that have different views than you? I've never understood this... makes no sense.

SweeTea said:

"Murder and lying comes easy for white people." -- 1994 speech.

Source: http://www-cgi.cnn.com/US.../notebook/

That is, as you put it, "a hate for white people based on racial grounds alone." I'm right on this.

Farrakhan is a racist who loves hate, thrives on controversy, blames the Jews for all the world's problems, would be out of a "job" if we had racial harmony (what exactly does he do for money, anyway?), has threatened physical harm to all white people solely on the basis of skin color (this includes like, little babies in Romania), calls himself the "black Hitler," and believes that the devil raped black people to create monkeys.

You cannot dispute any of these things. Until you can, I'm done with this argument.

Whoa, I step away from the computer for a bit, and come back to 88 messages!!!

We can comb through the quotes that Tommy and others have posted, and I will say this: most of the quotes that are used by the mainstream media attributed to Louis Farrakhan come from the dossier of the Anti-Defamation League, an organization that allegedly engaged in spying on domestic anti-apartheid activists in the 80s on behalf of South Africa, and pro-Palestinian groups for the state of Israel. Not exactly an objective source itself.

Having researched this issue, I know because I have a copy of their "information packet" on Farrakhan and it features soundbytes "reported" to have been said by him. Many are taken out of context, and some are just down right inaccurate.

One of the points that SweeTea is making is that one should hear for themselves or read for themselves before making a judgment. And that means from first-hand information. Use one of Farrakhan's publications, as opposed to second and third hand information.

For example, he NEVER called Judaism a "gutter" religion, he never praised Hitler, and he never blamed the Holocaust on Jews. The list goes on.

Has there been a conflict between he and members of the Jewish community? Yes, but it should be understood in the context of Black-Jewish relations, Muslim-Jewish relations, Israeli-Palestinian relations, Black-White relations.

In recent years, he has attempted to reach out to several Jewish organizations and leaders, and have even hosted them at his home for dinner where frank discussion and dialogue was the order of the day. He has said repeatedly, "If you can show me where I am in error, I will go before the world and apologize for being wrong."

He has also publicly acknowledged that his choice of language in the past was due to a reflex of anger and bitterness, and realizes that it was not the best way to get his points across, but that he felt attacked. (As he was, with several groups like the Jewish Defense League calling for his murder.)

I initially posted this article simply because there has been an attempt to link the horrific sniper attacks to the NOI, an organization which while under the leadership of Louis Farrakhan, does not have a record of violence against any community. Under his leadership, no one has attacked any one for their race, creed, color; no one has defaced any house of worship... The sniper fellout of the organization in '99, and so it is unfair to link what he did to his membership in the NOI, regardless of what one may think of the NOI or Louis Farrakhan.

IceNine said:

You need to quit it. It's embarrasing. Delve deeper Ice. You can do it... remember the movie "The WaterBoy"? You can do it...delve deeper the key word here is RACIAL...look it up!

Don't bother -- here:

racial - Pertaining to or characteristic of a race, races, or descent.

deeper still..

characteristic -- a distinctive feature; peculiarity.

and even deeper still...

feature - Any part of the human face or body.

And this is the crux of my argument. Mister Farrakan does not hate white people because they are white. Check out your history. I mean the real history. The one that includes black people, and the things we have survived living in this country. It's a wonder we still here and have some semblence of a family structure. If white people went through what black people have gone through, would not white people hate black people for the simple reason of the oppression and the killings? Hell, some white people hate us just because we're black! Let alone subjecting them to slavery, discrimination, lynchings, etc. Would they be justified in their feeling? Would it be called racism? I think not. It would be hate of evil doers. And if all the evil doers happen to be white or black does it make that person a racist? Duh...

SweeTea said:

Damn, you drew me back in. You just said that, as a black person, it's OK to hate white people.

"And if all the evil doers happen to be white or black does it make that person a racist?" - Damn straight - if you believe all members of any race are evil, that makes you a racist. You are 100% racist and you don't even know it. Your justification of your racism is the strongest proof. You think it's OK.
[This message was edited Fri Nov 1 14:22:56 PST 2002 by tommyalma]

I'm always moved by speeches given by Farrakhan. He's a gifted orator. I wonder sometimes if he'd accept or reject me as a person, simply on the basis of color and lack of religion.

Can we solve global racial and religious intolerances with a policy of separation/segregation as Farrakhan seems to promote, or is MLK's message of unity and peace the more satisfying societal model? Does Farrakhan's model have to be realized first, before equality and harmony are possible?

There's room for the positive messages from Farrakhan. Unfortunately, his violent messages (even if confined to his angrier past) will forever limit his impact and credibility on the national or international stage. In my opinion, he blew it. I'll listen to him when given the chance, but history has taught me that it's hard to ignore a leader's past.

Sweetea... since you don't seem to get it...

Here are some more quotes... you tell me if they are racist or not:

March 23, 1994: University of Wisconsin: "To the whites and `white Jews' in the audience, I say: It's gonna be a rough ride, buddy...Buckle your seat belts...because I didn't come to pin the tail on the donkey, I came to pin the tail on the honkey...bring me your rabbis and I'll strip your butts naked."


Before a City College audience in New York, Farrakhan warns: "The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him. I will fight to see that vicious beast go down into the late of fire prepared for him from the beginning, that he never rise again to give any innocent black man, woman or child the hell that he has delighted in pouring on us for 400 years."


During his November 1970 "Black Solidarity Day Address," Farrakhan urges black men to "take this beautiful woman — she's your queen! She's your jewel. Don't let a white man get near this black woman. And last but not least, black man, don't let that white man at anytime in your life give you his white woman! We don't want her!"


We have long ago left the language of white devils behind. It was a language that was necessary for that time in our development."

tommyalma said:

[Snip. Flame removed. Ian]


Sorry, Ian, but he asked for that.

[Yeah and I'm sorry too, sorry I didn't lock this thread hours ago! Ian]

tommyalma said:

It is VERY clear that Sweetea is 100% racist... there is no doubt about this.

I find it very funny too.

tommyalma said:

That maybe CNN's link, but they are simply repeating what the ADL claims Farrakhan said. They are primarily a fundraising organization that thrives off of scaring people into donating money to them to fight anti-Semitism. Unfortunately in the case of some Black people, the ADL seems to have a penchant for fabricating its reports or selectively quoting leaders to heighten anxiety in the Jewish community.

That being said, I wouldn't take anything the ADL reports with any degree of truth, unless verified by an independent source, which is NOT the media that simply recycles the ADL's reports.



Like the ADL would be out of a job for the same reason? How does the ADL make its money?

First and foremost Farrakhan is a religious leader that has established religious communities throughout North America, the Caribbean, England, France, and Africa; has inspired Black people to establish their own businesses so as to avoid depending on anyone for their subsistence, and established a prison ministry in many correctional institutions with an impressive record of rehabilitating convicts, etc., and if his followers wish to support him in his work then what business is it of yours how he makes his money? For those who follow him, he is viewed as their leader and they support their leader the way any nation or community supports its leaders, whether that be the Pope, Bishop, the President, etc.



And absolute LIE. Having reviewed his speeches from the last 30 years, I have never found any quote where he has threatened any white person with physical harm, or any person for that matter.



Uhh, no that is what Nathan Pearlmutter called him after he defended Jesse Jackson against the attacks on him when he was running for President. Some in the Jewish community were upset with Jackson for embracing Arafat in 84 and instead of the "run jesse run" slogan, they ran an add saying "ruin jesse ruin" and would be chanting it wherever he spoke. Farrakhan assigned security to Jackson (cuz the Secret Service hadn't at the time) and because of the military bearing of Farrakhan's followers and Farrakhan's ability to inspire a crowd, Pearlmutter called him a black Hitler. Since Pearlmutter made the comparison, Farrakhan studied it and said what he said, which was essentially, don't name him after that wicked killer... the only thing they have in common is that Hitler was raising the Germans up from nothing, and Farrakhan was raising black people up... but not for the purpose that Hitler had which included the extermination of black people.



Uhh no. Where did you get this from?



You cannot prove any of these things using primary sources (i.e., from Farrakhan's own words unmediated by hostile sources--the ADL and mainstream press). Until YOU can, I'm done with this argument.

IceNine said:

Will you please address my previous questions? Just this once, please?

IceNine said:

What is your source for these quotes? Are they mediated through hostile sources like the ADL? I can tell you for sure that the 'pin the tail on the honeky' speech was NOT Farrakhan. It was Khallid Muhammad was dismissed from his position in the NOI for using such language.

Just one more reason why if you're going to make accusations, then go to the REAL source.

SweeTea said:

Look, will you just admit that you ARE 100% certainly a racist? If so, I will address your racist comments.

You just said that it is okay for blacks to hate whites and that you agree with blacks hating whites... that is racist.

SweeTea said:

Yeah, Ian, I'm "ignant."

SweeTea said:

Yeah, he did ask for it, sweetea... he is white after all and we all know how you feel about whites!

:LOL:

You are one of the biggest racists on the site and it shows... you came out a little bit yesterday and now you are 100% out in the open.

:LOL:

Damn, I love you racist types!

Yeah, I'm an "evil doer!" That's, like, totally worse than a naysayer!

tommyalma said:

Just apologize for being white and you will still be terribly evil and a devil, but you will have at least admitted how wrong you are.

:LOL:

IceNine said:

Yes, I apologize for something I had no control over! What was I not thinking!

IceNine said:

MISDIRECTION AT ITS FINEST.

You're finally revealing your true self. Try to label me a racist if you want. I don't have to defend myself to you, you mean nothing to me. I was just trying to broaden your horizons. Show you a different side of the coin. Open your eyes to the truth about Minister Farrakan. But you do not want to accept the truth. That has become quite clear. You want to remain in your small little world. That is your choice. You are a 100% hypocrit. You perpetrate like you're so intelligent and so open minded. But I know you. I know your kind. Check out your own avatar. It suits you well. People should be afraid of you because you are a phony. But you don't fool me. I can see through you. You are a hypocrit. If people want to know what I'm about read my previous posts, and judge for yourself and not just take the word of this fool.

tommyalma said:

GUILTY OF BEING WHITE

I'm sorry
For something I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born

GUILTY OF BEING WHITE

I'm a convict
Of a racist crime
I've only served
19 years of my time

GUILTY OF BEING WHITE

TheMax said:

Yes he would accept you. Anyone who steps to him with respect and sincerity receives the same.



Separation has always been presented by Farrakhan as a conditional policy, i.e., IF we cannot live together in peace, then we should separate. His recent speeches have him speaking of America as "my country" and "our country" so it would seem that he is interested in living together IF it can work.



Keep in mind that even while MLK taught of unity and peace, he was still the pastor of a Black church--an all black institution. And later in his life, he began to admit to the value of some black nationalist activity, like pooling of resources among black people, and black pride.

Before people can live together in mutual respect they must first KNOW themselves and have a healthy respect for themselves. Unfortunately, this society and culture still promotes stereotypes and white supremacy. So such ideas would have to be addressed before people can really have mutual respect.



Violent messages? Where has he preached violence?

You are probably right about the credibility thing to some degree though. The majority of white people will probably continue to believe what has been portrayed about him by the media. However, in the Black world in America, the Caribbean, Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Farrakhan commands tremendous respect among people of color and has been received practically as a head of state in the countries he has visited.

Back in the 80s when Jesse Jackson went to Syria to negotiate the release of Flt. Lt. Goodman who was being held hostage... guess who went with him? Goodman's captors were so impressed by Farrakhan's knowledge of Islam and by the fact that Jackson had a Muslim advisor that it enable the release. That's just one example.



I don't know if he blew it, because as I get older I get more and more pessimistic about many people's ability to see and learn beyond the soundbite, beyond what is being shoved down their throat. Most people are too lazy to find out for themselves and would rather have prepackaged ideas given to them for consumption.

History has taught me that tomorrow brings a new day though. And just as the majority of Black people continue to believe in the goodness of a nation wherein our people were enslaved, bought and sold like animals, raped, killed, lynched, beat, fought bled and died for freedom that we didn't enjoy... if WE can continue to have hope, then it is not impossible for others to look past anyone's history toward a future of promise.
.
[This message was edited Fri Nov 1 15:01:38 PST 2002 by NuPwrSoul]

{sips orange juice}

SweeTea said:

Yep, I am white and you hate us... you are so right!

Oh, I forgot... you CAN NOT POSSIBLY be a racist because you have actually spoken to a white person before!

:LOL:

You are a giant racist and you shouldn't be ashamed of that... ignorance is okay. It takes all kinds of people to make up society, so you and your racist buddies will always have a place.

:LOL:

Later, racist... bigot.

IceNine said:

You are so transperant. Look at you -- sensationalism. You are doing to me what the government/media has done to these so-called snipers. Sentenced to death without a trial. And Minister Farrakan. Blaming it all on him because they were member of NOI.

Get a grip boyfriend... you slippin away.

SweeTea said:

No, no, no... Farrakhan IS a racist and your statements in this thread have shown that you believe that it is impossible for a black person to be a racist... this is, in itself, racist. Ergo, you are a racist.

Smile, it is perfectly cool... I have nothing against you racists, I just find you funny.

IceNine said:

OK now say that out loud, and very loudly 25 more times then you're make people like you and yourself believe it.
Later Ice, you're sickening. Get help soon, cuz you've got some serious issues. I'm cutting this conversation off before Ian get mad at me.

SweeTea said:

Bye bye, sweetie... don't hate me because I'm white.

I love racists just like I love everyone else, so don't be mad.

:LOL:

IceNine said:

Hey, is it wrong to be prejudiced against racists? What about evil doers?
[This message was edited Fri Nov 1 15:18:41 PST 2002 by tommyalma]

IceNine said:[quote]

SweeTea said:

Yep, I am white and you hate us... you are so right!


No, you hate yourself.