Michael Jackson. Jocelyn Wildenstein. Amanda LePore.


These three (and many more) are constantly criticised for their paid-for visages. People shake their heads and mutter about what a waste and a damn shame it is and why-couldn't-they-see-they-were-good-to-start-with. People in turns pity them and ridicule them.

But what I want to know is, where do we draw the line? How much plastic surgery is okay, and how do we decide when there's been too much?

Better yet. Why don't we treat the girl at work with the nose job with the same contempt/pity/derision as those we deem to have taken their surgery too far? Why is the surgical altering of our appearance deemed okay if the results match us closer to the western beauty ideal, and not okay if something goes weird? It's cool if your tits are artifically bigger so men can gawk at you, but not cool if your nose turns out a peculiar shape?


Why do so many people seem to have the attitude that plastic surgery is "okay, if it makes you feel better about yourself"? Isn't that just teaching people to base their self-worth on the shape of their bodies? Why aren't we as a society encouraging people to love the bodies their Creator gave them, and to base their self-worth and self-esteem on who they are as a person, not who they are as a flat stomach/big boobs/round butt/big pecs/tight skin/little nose?

I would never choose plastic surgery, but when it comes to other folks I'm very much a 'live and let live' kinda guy. If it makes them feel better about themselves, why not?

violator said:

That's what I'm asking about. WHY are we promoting the idea that paying someone to slice up your face and suck out your fat is even a good idea?

Why are we encouraging people to see themselves as body parts constantly in need of "improvement" instead of teaching them to base their self-worth on who they really are? Why are we promoting the idea that a healthy way to feel better about yourself isn't to work towards a more positive self-image, but to alter your looks so you can conform to a narrow standard of physical acceptability?

And were do we draw the line? How do we decide how much is too much? And why do we treat one person who gets plastic surgery any different than others who do, when ultimately their goals were almost always the same?

meow85 said:

I don't think anyone is "promoting" anything. I think more than anything else, what is communicated publicly to people is to have a healthy self image, be happy within yourself. Aside from a few 'reality shows' dealing with plastic surgery, I can't say that I see much in the media promoting people going out and altering their bodies.

And not all surgery is about vanity. I worked with a girl who had work on her nose about 9 months ago. Her nose, literally, looked crooked on her face. Yet, I still thought she was an attractive girl. But it made her very self-conscious. And I can understand someone wanting to have surgery for something like that.

violator said:

My nose is crooked too. Should I rush out and have surgery to "fix" it?

Or would I be better off in the long-run if I learned to love what I have and not to base my worth on what Cosmo says is cute this month?

Diet, makeup and cosmetic surgery make up a multi-billion dollar industry. They wouldn't be where they're at if we collectively hadn't been convinced our worth lay in our bodies' appearance. Why would she be self-conscious about it if she hadn't been taught that there was something wrong with not having a cute button-nose?
[Edited 3/11/08 2:02am]

meow85 said:

If you want to fix it? Yeah, you should. If you don't, that's cool too. I just don't think that all surgery is based on some ego vanity thing. Or that it all comes out of poor self-image. There are valid reasons for why some folks choose to have plastic surgery. Are there individuals who overdo it? Of course there are, but I tend to think that the plastic surgery of the Wildensteins and Jacksons of the world are borne of an entirely different set of problems (another subject, another thread).

As far as I'm aware, nobody taught her that her nose was not cute. In fact, everyone I knew constantly reinforced to her that she was an attractive girl before the surgery. This was something she didn't like about herself and she chose to change it. I see no problem with that.

violator said:

That's my point right there. Her nose isn't herself, it's a part of her body.

You say nobody taught her her nose wasn't cute, but where did she learn it? Where did some other girl learn her tits were too small, or some guy learn his skin was too dark? It's not a matter of a specific person sitting you down and listing off what's wrong with your body; it's our whole culture telling you what's wrong with your body.


You say the Jacksons and Wildensteins of the wolrd are of a different breed, but how so? How did we draw the line between acceptable surgical re-shaping of your body and unacceptable? Why are the Jacksons and Wildensteins seen unquestionably as special cases with special problems, but some girl who begs for breast implants for her 18th birthday an individual making a positive shift to their "self" (again, there's that concept of body=self)

It's lying about your genes!

I won't even dye my hair, or wear nail polish.

CalhounSq said:

The next female Joker

Heiress said:

Does that really bother people? That it's somehow "dishonest"?

CarrieMpls said:

bothers me... i'm fairly chemically sensitive.

but as for the hair dying... i want to age naturally, ya know, if my hair is gray, why not be proud? i've earned 'em. (wrinkles too)

Heiress said:

I don't mean bother you in the sense of make you itchy or uncomfortable or allergic or whatever, I mean it bothers you that someone else would do this because you feel they aren't portraying themselves honestly. You said they're "lying" about their genes. I find that interesting.
I'd argue that whatever I make myself into is more me than the body I was born with. How I apply make-up, color my hair, how I dress, all the outside is more "me" as it's all my own invention. It's how I've worked with what I had no control over.

CarrieMpls said:

if you have a big ol' schnozz, and you reduce it to a tiny ski nose, then yes, you are lying about your genes, in effect!

i'd like to see people accept themselves just the way they are. so i'm practicing what i preach; that's all. other folks shall do as they like.

meow85 said:

Those things are promoted, but the reality is that it doesn't work. People can say that the inside is the only thing that matters til they are blue in the face...it doesn't matter, hearing that doesn't change the fact that when a person is unhappy about their looks nothing will make them feel better until those looks change.

The only way to change people being happy with who they are is to completely start over in every sense of the word. Everything would have to change - everything from media to the way children are raised...and even if everything did change, this would only have effect on those who have never been exposed to the way things are now.

JustErin said:

I agree with the whole post except for the bolded part. I think a person can come to accept their looks, but I think that's simply a different road to reach happiness. But, who's to say which road is "right" for anyone else?

CarrieMpls said:

Ok, you're right. There are certainly always exceptions to the rule...but I do really think that most people will never be happy until a change is made externally.

JustErin said:

And I think that's an unhealthy attitude. People need to learn to love what they have, and not to base their self-worth on their appearance. A tiny nose and puffier lips are not going to change anything fundamentally about who you are -unless you equate yourself with your body, which is a deeply flawed way of thinking IMO. And unfortunately, it's an all too common belief.

JustErin said:

But the problem with that statement is that a good deal of the people that are unhappy externally will always be unhappy, no matter how many surgeries they get. Sometimes there's a much bigger picture and until they deal with what's internal, they'll never be happy. Bottom line, if you're a shitty person, you're still gonna be a shitty person after the great boob job.

But like you said before, there are exceptions to every rule. I've known people that have great self image, they just wanted to fix the one little thing and they left it at that. Unfortunately, I've known more people who have the attitude of "what can I get done next."

CarrieMpls said:

and how is wearing nail polish lying about your genes? No one in their right mind is going to think anyone has naturally red nails.

Now wearing realistic looking fake nails may be considered lying about your genes...

JuliePurplehead said:

I've never met anyone who'd had plastic surgery who seemed really well-adjusted and confident. And I've met a lot of people who've gone under the knife. I did used to work in esthetics.

JasmineFire said:

I was replying in response to the question... plastic surgery is definitely lying about your genes.

The other stuff is taking the question even further.