SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Totally agree with you Richard....and those checks are in place...although not always adhered to as they should be....

For me...to get my permit to carry/conceal...and you have to be licensed to do so legally... there are training classes and registrations and waiting periods... we have all the red-tape and the criminals do not... where's the logic in that? But never the less, we adhere to these rules in hopes that by making it difficult to stay inside the boundaries of the law, that the criminals and others will be stopped along the way...

Regretfully this does not always happen and we have what happened in Florida... the reason the death toll was not higher was because someone was there to stop this guy.... that is the truth of the matter...

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I'm not sure....but was that aimed at me?

pardonme4livin said:

Didn't you say it was an off duty cop? That is not just an average citizen with a gun as was your point.

I'm not piling on to ya Kenny, at least not over guns

evenstar said:

I am not patronizing you Laurel.... and I most certainly would not wish to offend you or anyone who is debating this with me.... we are not just talking about accidental deaths here...those deaths in that restaurant were not accidental were they? If you were in that restaurant (thankfully you were not) and the guy was coming at you or your sister...would you rather have a means to defend yourself...or not? Put yourself in THAT situation and tell me...would you rather live or watch as the worst thing ever happens before you with no way to stop it...

emm said:

Thank you.... I'm glad the numbers are so low there... there were three found dead here in the Minneapolis area just this weekend.... It's March....

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

In this instance....it was a cop... which is fantastic...but ever heard the xpression "there's never a cop around when you need one".... that is usually exactly what happens.... and had it not been for this guy....with his weapon...and if no one else would have been able to stop the guy...we could be talking about a lot more victims.... sad either way...

pardonme4livin said:

five was a low year for us thankfully. as a whole we are at 4 murders per 100,000 whereas the national average is less than half that. so our numbers aren't necessarily low. minneapolis is also at 4 per 100,000 if you believe the link i just read.

but gun violence just doesn't happen very much. that difference can only be explained as a difference in gun culture, don't you think? no one would consider the need to carry a weapon here.

pardonme4livin said:

Dude, I lived in a city that was dubbed Canada's murder capital at the time. I took a course in a studio that was in the roughest part of town. My point is that "harms way" is all around us, all the time. No matter what country you live in. Bad people are everywhere.

Your experiences are different than mine, sure...but yours are different because you live in a ultra violent society - which in turn was created, for the most part, by a society that believes that one's right to bare arms is more important than one's safety.

As far as I am concerned, those who fight for that right are part of the problem and are certainly not helping find a solution to a country that is spiraling out of control when it comes to violence.

How has having the right to carry a concealed weapon made your country a better place to live in? That's right, it hasn't.

JustErin said:

I'm a US citizen and part of a growing population that agrees with you guys.

Barbaric "right" it is to own handguns.

No excuse to have them. Ever. at all. period.
And I was pretty good at shooting my nine mil in the military too

pardonme4livin said:

so you're completely confident that you wouldn't accidentally shoot anyone else? that someone couldn't grab/steal your gun, and use it to kill others? i just will never, ever understand this.

Kenny, ya know i love ya but seriously dude...more guns is sooo not the solution.



So is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?

Empress said:

it cant be too bad when the qualifications to become a police officer are less than adequate and many seem to be as bad if not worse than the criminals they chase.

I couldn't believe last night they showed a cop hitting a guy over the head with a flashlight for simply walking away from him on 'Cops', like its normal and acceptable behavior. Plus you hear of cops doing stupid stuff equivalent to this guy walking into a wendys and shooting people up, then himself all the time.
What makes anyone feel safe?
certainly not no pig with a half cocked attitude.
[Edited 3/3/08 12:57pm]

mdiver said:

And i wanna say.

Kenny you know me,i will fight like the next man, back to the wall bro, you want ME the fuck with you not against. I am not averse to violence or defence but guns make it too easy to pop a bro.

mdiver said:

I appreciate what you say Phil.... and like I said to Erin and Laurel and Emm and Anna.... I don't disagree that MORE guns is no solution.... my whole point is this:

What if you and Val were sitting in a restaurant... a guy comes up and points a gun.... do you want to watch it happen or stop it from happening.... I don't want to have the regret of doing nothing... I will lay my life down to protect you or Val or most anyone.... and if carrying can save you...then carry I will....

pardonme4livin said:

I understand my friend, i do. I guess that is what makes the world so great. You and me are friends, worlds apart on some stuff and brothers on other stuff. I accept you and you accept me. Thanks man

JustErin said:

that goes for 99% of the rest of the world, girl.

evenstar said:

Not what I was saying Laurel... try to at least hear my point even if you disagree.... this is not a you against me thing.... this is you don't think I am right in carrying and me saying that if someone was to try to shoot you in front of me...they'd have me to contend with.... not just a guy saying don't...but a guy saying you better not....

Sorry you cannot see both sides even if you are on one side or the other....

I try to see both sides to any argument even if I am VERY passionate about one side or the other....

pardonme4livin said:

no of course i don't mean only you specifically, but like anyone who'd want to do that. it's not as though something can't happen where your gun is taken from you, or you're shot so then criminals have your weapon as well, etc. there's just too much risk involved. i also don't think that having a weapon automatically means you're going to be able to take out someone else with one.

pardonme4livin said:

This is one of the very few arguments for guns that I actually can tolerate. Guns for the fun of killing and because that is a cultural bonding between father/son/men are arguments I want to throw right in the trash pour gas on and burn

pardonme4livin said:

MoniGram said:

http://prince.org/msg/100/262914

Cinnie said:

Ass.....

pardonme4livin said:

This is a twisted logic you have there.
Access to guns gives more 'opportunities' for someone to get killed. That's always the end result of having a killing machine available.
You don't have to be a criminal, or a bad person to be a killer. All you need is a mistake. And everyone make mistakes, nobody's perfect. So the more guns out there, there would be more chances for deadly mistakes.
[Edited 3/3/08 14:29pm]

ArielB said:

First off...no need to insult me me k.... secondly... my original point has once again been lost....so I will say it slowly for you...

What if you.... were sitting in a restaurant....and someone walked in with a gun and started blasting away....putting you and/or a loved one in imminent harm's way.... would you rather sit and wait for the gun to be turned on you... or would you rather have the means to end the threat? That was the point...

I carry because it is necessary for me to depending on where I happen to be working that day.... I do not condone anyone without proper training or licensure to carry...

And for your last point... as far as anyone could end up killing someone on accident... well ofcourse that is true...but the jackass that walked in to that Wendy's was killing on purpose....and if someone did not have a way to end that threat...MORE people would have perished.... that is my point....nothing more...

pardonme4livin said:

I don't think he insulted u.....
I tend to agree that no guns is a better option .....I guess its very different over there to here .... ...in NZ even the police don't even have guns ...they have battons ...in a ideal world ...no weapons of destruction is better

Ocean said:

I agree with you.
Aside from the scenerios Ken pointed out, it's a numbers game on national scale isn't it?

i would think if weapons coming into countries that ban them were very very hard to obtain, the overall violent crime rates attributed to guns would drop significantly. Moreover, cause guns allow a level of killing unmatched by any other weapon with regards to ease and use, I would think the overal violent crime rate would drop.

Does anyone have numbers on this?

Ocean said:

I agree....there should be no weapons at all.... BUT...that is not the world we live in unfortunately...I will not be victimized nor will I allow it to happen around me...

I am sorry that no one can understand my position on this.

Imago said:

Exactly

pardonme4livin said:

I understand my friend. I really do.

But I guess I just see it from an overall societal standpoint and what's better for the whole...as a society, we're all in this together, no? Than I do from an individual standpoint.
I guess that's why I'm a liberal.