It seems to me that one of the real reasons why there is so much argumentativeness between social groups is simply down to the abdication of individual identity, what we think and how we express ourselves in favour of identifying with a particular group. By losing your humanity through a collective identifcation, I think some folks, not just on the Org but in general, fail to recognise the humanity of others that you wouldn't normally socialise with. When you give up your individuality for being in a clique, group or whatever, you also exchange a measure of your own freedom of thought and action for a submission of what appears 'cool' to say, whether it be homophobic, sexist, racist or whatever.

The immediate pay off is security. You feel welcome in a group, relieves you of the troubles of searching for your own identity by giving you some sort of identification, and appeals to your instinct to belong. Everyone wants to deel needed and needs to feel wanted. Not just Erin j/k!

The bigger the groups supported in our current culture, the bigger the trouble I think. I think some folks just think of their group being central to the human cause, other subgroups peripheral to it. Thus you are going to get a lot of sexist, racist, homophobis arseholes the whole world over. Any peace will be at best temporary unless we approach each other as individuals equal in our humanity. Wishful thinking sure but I think that by dividing ourselves into groups inevitiably vcreates inequalities, or the illusion of them.

If you were to stop people and ask on the street, 'What are you?' They'd say something like 'I'm the biggest queen of the parade', 'I'm a recovering alcoholic, 'I'm a lonely housewife' and so on. Very few would just reply 'I'm a human being'.

Without wanting to go on to much like I'm some kind of hippy, if we could also answer that way, with all honesty, accepting our own uniqueness, we could approach others without conflict. I think the trick is just to be happy in accepting who we are and stuff what other people think.

purplesweat said:

I agree that this is insecure bravado I filmed the last 2 births in my family so I cannot be accused of this!

purplesweat said:

straight males overcompensate too when other men are brought up in conversation with any context that might be even slightly erotic or praiseful of other men's physical attributes. i don't think it's a gay or straight thing but maybe more of a male thing in general - it's like we have to prove our sexuality so much that we feel a need to overstate some kind of "disgust" for the gender we don't identify as being attracted to. it's kind of silly. women don't seem to be quite as extreme about this, gay OR straight.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I've always felt that that was a joke, the "eww, gross" reaction.
[Edited 2/28/08 15:40pm]

NDRU said:

I'm sure for some it is. But it's obvious to me that some have a genuine problem with female sex or genitalia and find the woman's body gross.

Again, there's a reason why there's so many gay men in fashion.

I actually pondered once whether the reason all the women are so skinny on catwalks and in fashion shoots is to make them more masculine. To shed them of any feminimity...

purplesweat said:

I thought it was so they were more like moving coat hangers, and the focus is not on the girls' amazing bodies.

NDRU said:

It's probably more likely that but I just wonder the subconscious meanings sometimes...

purplesweat said:

Maybe, whatever the motivations, it's hard to argue against the fact that they're presenting often unhealthy images for women to follow.

meow85 said:

Wow.Asshole stinks way more!

NDRU said:

There is something else entirely with this crowd though. Back in the day when I was a glamour puss, I could dress with the best of them but even so, experienced really cunty attitudes from little bitch queens. It's one of the reasons why I hang out in leather bars where people's expectations are more real. I think a lot of it has to do with image than actual hatred of women and or their parts. Although I don't exactly want to be anywhere near naked lady flesh

Volitan said:

You know this.....how?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

well, it IS where dookie comes out.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Something that spews shit can't smell very good. Something that spews babies is different. Babies smell good.

Volitan said:

i think that has more to do with baby powder and less to do with mrs. vajayjay, but you make at least half a valid point.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

mmm, naked lady flesh

Yeah, I'm not gay and not a woman (so why am I even commenting? ) But I get the impression it's about embracing what you do like more than really rejecting women as gross.

I mean, look around, everywhere the female form is celebrated, even on womens' magazines and the notably gay fashion industry. Nobody thinks women are gross! But I guess it's a sign that we can and do hurt people without having those intentions.

Anxiety said:

Could be, but I still enjoy the smell
[Edited 2/28/08 17:04pm]

Volitan said:

how many unwashed newborn babies have you smelled in your life?

Anxiety said:

That's not the smell I meant

JustErin said:

I can't believe it's like that, I just can't. It would mean a complete lack of understanding of sexual preference. Surely it's not that. Gay men can't be thinking you'll take their gay men. Or straight men, which aren't interested in them. They can't be thinking you'll take anything from them. Somebody explain this absurdity!

Anxiety said:

That would make sense.

fhqwhgads said:

OK, sadly I don't have any of these stories but 97% of the gay men here have stories of totally having sex with straight dudes! That really could be it!

NDRU said:

Really?

I see it constantly ridiculed, looked over with a fine tooth comb, airbrushed, lightened, streched, enhanced, hidden...where's the celebration?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

They ain't straight!

fhqwhgads said:

If they are fucking Justerin they aint gay either!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Remember that what was being spoken about was a social setting though, not a curious supposedly normally straight guy in a gay dude's apartment finding himself open to having sex with a guy. We weren't talking about, say JustErin, chatting to a straight guy she's interested in at the club and a gay guy stealing him away for a liplock on the dancefloor, or vice-versa. In the experience of your gay friends who have had sex with 'straight' guys, did it usually happen in public social settings such as this where there's a mix of gay and straight people?

purplesweat said:

I guess that's a difference in perspective.

I hear you, and that's a serious issue, but I think you're focused on the negative side effect.
[Edited 2/29/08 10:14am]

fhqwhgads said:

The audacious fags I know I wouldn't at all be surprised

Why do some gay men claim that they've had sex with "straight" men?

Dance said:

you can have an isolated incident in which you have a same sex encounter, but in terms of how you identify, consider yourself straight.

you don't have to call yourself a vegetarian to toss a salad every now and then, you know?

ok, bad metaphor

fhqwhgads said:

I understand how absurd this must seem -- I really do. But I'm telling you the absolute truth! And it's not all about the immediate vying for a possibly sexual encounter. "Competition" could be perceived simply in garnering a desirable person's attention, favor, adoration, friendship, etc.

I've seen it happen many times, and it's not only a gay man vs. straight woman thing either...

I have been made aware, for example, that many of my closest friends -- good-looking, strapping straight men I've known my entire life, who know I'm unavailable on like 3 or 4 different levels -- have been leary about bringing their significant others around me because their women have always developed crushes on my ridiculous butt!! I SOOOO shouldn't be a threat, but I am... and I'm nothing special.

I think an irrational sense of threat in the romantic/sexual arena is something to which no group is immune.
[Edited 2/28/08 19:10pm]