Imago said:

How utterly lame is that??

JustErin said:

I mean, what could they possibly be warring about against each other? The best seats at hockey games? I. don't. think. so.

ehuffnsd said:

Sorry, but the whole notion of one set of people being spiritually different than most by virtue of which way they swing just rubs me the wrong way. I don't see how it's supposed to make sense.

meow85 said:

lesbians are just as anti-male as gays are anti-female.

we don't trust or like each other. only reason we're in it together is we both have are attracted to the same gender.

Imago said:

meow85 said:

not different just a different understanding. most of the essays are from the 60s-early 80s when the movement was struggling to find it's place in the larger world. some of them are very valid some aren't. as a people we've been spiritually abused by the larger religious worlds so movements like the Radical Faries and MCC were very important in helping us get to where we are today.

ehuffnsd said:

I'm not going to make a generalization here, but I used to have to be a "stand-in" boyfriend for my straight friend, Mark. His best friend was a drunken lesbian and he always had to be her designated sober driver. So everytime he would take her to this club called "The CHerokee", I would come along as his boyfriend cause he was too damned insecure to handle a good looking man complimenting him or offering him a drink, etc. etc.

Anyways, my experience from those times I went was that most of the lesbians I ran into were quite abrasive and mean. I've been told to "move", "get out of my way" and all manner of things walking around the club, that I've never seen gay men do to women in gay bars.

But again--this may just be my experience, so I don't wan to apply it to the broader canvas of this "lesbian vs. gay" war.

Imago said:

it's very real.

gays and lesbians don't mix socially.

ehuffnsd said:

And that's just as stupid. Shit like that makes me ashamed to be queer, and I'm not exaggerating.

And honestly, I've enountered considerably less anti-guy bias from lesbians than I have anti-girl bias from gay men. It does happen, no doubt. I just don't see the same exclusive "our people" mentality from the lesbian camp nearly as often.

This thread is all Supa's fault, isn't it?

meow85 said:

i've experienced the opposite. most gay men i know, even though they joke, are very open to straight women and lesibans. most lesbians i know are very male friendly but i know my experience aren't the norm.
[Edited 2/28/08 12:43pm]

ehuffnsd said:

I understand that, but to me claiming a different approach to spirituality is just a way to claim some sort of specialness as a defense, rather than anything practical or grounded in reality. . Like some Natives back in the day who used to say they had an intrinsically deeper connection to nature than other races by way of their ethnicity. It's also, IMO, a very western notion, as the concept of homosexuality does not exist everywhere, nor does the idea that it's okay to not be what religion prescribes in any part of your life.

JustErin said:

Interesting observation, Mach. I don't know if I'd say the most sexist things I've heard have come from gay men, but I'd definitely say that some of the most sexist stuff I've heard has come from gay men. But, hey, we are the premier artists in everything!

Just brainstorming out loud...

Women, for most straight men, are perhaps dealt with by default -- it's a given that they will be a part of life. Reproduction requires it; hormones sort of ensure it.

Perhaps women, for gay men, are dealt with with some greater degree of intentionality. That is, women will be around by virtue of our having been born of them or having them as blood relatives. Beyond that, though, the degree to which women will figure in our lives on more intimate levels is greatly up to us. We engage them, then, with a certain level of active consideration. Some of us process their sex as inconsequential; some of us greatly value women because they are women; some of us merely idolize their femininity -- leading us to either absolutely venerate certain women for possessing that quintessential femininity or to resent the heck out of them altogether.

Add to this the expectation -- an almost forced expectation in some circles -- that women will play a sexual role in our lives, and there comes a natural reaction: Either we come up with positive ways to disown the expectation and appreciate women on other levels, or we react with a certain combative disdain, hating not only the expectation, but women themselves.

Am I way off on this one, gay men?

Lammastide said:

nope

ehuffnsd said:

Maybe you have to be female to perceive it. No offense meant to you, but a lot of guys in general don't seem to be capable for seeing sexism for what it is.

In my experience, though anti-male bias does exist in the lesbian community, it's nowhere near as prevalent or mean as the anti-female bias in the gay community.

meow85 said:

i think the same goes for the anti-male bias in the lesbian community. as a female you don't notice it.

Lammastide said:

Mach?


Then why does it not -as far as I've seen, at least -not occur on the same levels when the genders are reversed? Or for that matter, even in straight people? No one likes being forced or expected to do something, and yet just as high expectations of sexual involvement or influence are placed on those who ARE attracted to the opposite sex.

ehuffnsd said:

I can cede to that. Okay then, WHY does it exist, either way? It's insane. Why does being gay so often seem to go hand in hand with a hatred or disdain for the opposite sex? Again, I know this isn't always the case. It probably isn't even the majority of the time. But it happens, and it's stupid. I just want to know why.

As a straight girl I can say that, in general terms, the gay guys I have met have been meaner to me than the lesbians I have met. I tend to get the whole catty, eye rolling attitude from them. I always kinda thought it was some weird form of jealousy.

That or maybe I'm just a jerk.

JustErin said:

A lot of gay guys I've met, especially the young ones, have just been catty and mean altogether. It's almost like some homos think they have to act like that or they'll get their membership cards revoked.


For one, I'm tired of it. I'm moving to a new city in the fall. With any luck, I'll get to know folk who aren't so much like the ones here. Maybe I'll even hang out with straight people more -they're nicer.

meow85 said:

Sorry for calling you Mach, meow. Simple oversight.

As far as sex reversal goes -- anti-male Lesbians, I assume you mean -- it absolutely does exist! And I'd go so far as to say to a more calculated degree: I've yet to meet a gay man who so identified because he thought women were so bad. But I have encountered MANY self-identified Lesbians who say they chose to be Lesbians because men are such jerks. (Not that I disagree.)

And as far as heterosexual sexism, I have to say that while it exists and obviously has detrimental effects on the opposite sex, it transpires with a certain level of sobriety and acknowlegement of mutual destruction if only by way of biology. Men and women can only exact hatred on each-other so much... or else they'll cease to exist. Moreover, even if a given heterosexual man or woman does resent an expected commitment to the opposite sex, it absolutely doesn't suggest a wholesale withdrawal of sexual engagement with them: We see this functionalized all the time in sex outside of marriage. and I can tell you absolute horror stories about men who, I believe, hate women, but would break their necks to have sex with any and all of them... and have mastered the art of appearing nice, gentlemanly, sensitive and civil to have that happen.
[Edited 2/28/08 13:10pm]

meow85 said:

18-25 is gay middle school.

alot of what straight people do in middle school and high school we don't get to do. so those years after coming out trying out and building the social skills that straight people take for granted.

JustErin said:

just seeing where you fit in the pecking order more than likely.

ehuffnsd said:

What do you mean?

JustErin said:

just figuring out why you are there.

i've been out at a restuarant or something and hear a group of women go "Let's go to Rich's and watch the gay guys" so sometimes when i encounter a new striaght person i'm always trying to figure out are they cool or just coming to watch the freak show.

JustErin said:

Erin, you know as well as I do that you are an attractive woman. Why would gay men not see you as, among other things, competition?

I can tell you that those reactions you get are endured by young gay men, themselves, at the hands of other gay men. It's awful! As we get older, the need to exist as a commodity in some sexual market place subsides, and the sting of competition wanes. I've heard many women say that the BEST friends they have, then, are somewhat mature gay men, who have grown out of that nihilistic rat race.
[Edited 2/28/08 13:17pm]

ehuffnsd said:

Why I am "there"? Where? You mean out with friends in public places, meeting other groups of people who are mutual friends?

Gimme a break, you'll have to come up with a better answer than that.

How self-centered it is to think that everything is about you (when I say "you" I'm speaking in general terms). So because one thinks it's all about them - and in a negative way, they act like an immature dink with a major chip on their shoulder the second they meet someone that isn't like them?

JustErin said:

I think he might have been confused about your original statement. Like you were at a gay bar or something. I don't know...

Nevermind...

Lammastide said:

But I have no interest in gay men, so that's just really silly. If they are thinking I am competition in terms of straight men...well, that's just even more dumb.

It really shouldn't be an issue at all.

But, I can see how it can happen within the gay community - the competitive side, that is.