Dance said:[quote]

evenstar said:

And 35,000 people a year are killed in gun violence here so still by comparison, England is a utopia.

Stymie said:

If it was a product of bullying then there would be a shooting every single day.

Yes, the media is fair and balanced, isn't it?

Stymie said:

Nice way to clean that up.

Gun control has increased deaths and crime in the UK.

Tell the people over there who have to deal with it that it's a utopia.

Dance said:

There are plenty of UK orgers here. Ask them yourself. I am sure many of them would rather keep having gun control.

Dance said:

i've been there and spoken to many of them- every last one prefers the gun control there to how it's handled in the US.

No thank you.

There are plenty of stories about how gun control has sent crime through the roof.

btw

UK's population is roughly a fifth of ours, and at the rate of the increase in gun violence over there they are going to match the US in a year or two, or they'll move past us.

Dance said:

so you're going to base your opinions on what citizens there think on what you imagine? how sensible.

evenstar said:

Really, is that what the three or four rich/comfortable and US-hating Brits you hung out with told you?

Well then damn, I better ignore all that info.

evenstar said:

[Edited 2/15/08 11:47am]

evenstar said:

So you're saying I made up the all the info that's out there documenting the rise in gun violence since the ban?

WOW.

If I have that kind of talent, I really shouldn't be orging.

Dance said:[quote]

evenstar said:

ooookay. so every last UK orger on here hates the US and is rich. right.

and that's one article- hardly empirical proof. it's clear there's not much sense reasoning with you, though. i mean, you're trying to tell actual college students you know what goes on here better than we do. i just can't wrap my mind around the logic that the solution to gun crime is more guns.

evenstar said:

At no point did I state that every last person from the UK was any one thing.

I never stated that I based that on one article. Do the research yourself. You'll find a mountain of information that says the same.

"Actual college students?"

Do you really assume that I haven't been to college and that only someone sitting in a dorm knows what goes on there?

I don't care what you believe is a solution. I'm not an NRA member, but like I said it's silly to play the "overseas people aren't racist or violent and their hair is made of candy and they crap gold" game.

Dance said:

i meant that you implied i'd gathered my opinions from only talking to rich/US-hating people.

okay, so when you were in college did you have easy access to weaponry?

you should join the NRA, your views line up exactly with theirs. at no point did i imply any of that nonsense- obviously there's crime, just that incidents like this don't happen over there, and maybe there's something to be learned from that.

Dance said:

The UK stats were for injuries and deaths, not just deaths alone.

Also, when it comes to homicides, the US ranks near the top as far as percentage involving a firearm, at almost 40% (stats for 1998-2000) (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_gun_vio_hom_hom_wit_fir-crime-gun-violence-homicides-firearms)

There's no doubt in my mind that it all means you're more likely to be shot dead in the US than in the UK and the statistics seem to bear this out. Check out any of these kinds of stats and you'll see the US alongside countries such as Columbia, South Africa, Thailand, Guatemala in the top ten worst etc. - not a pretty picture for a first world powerhouse.

Fauxie said:

omg, shut up you rich US-hating british freak!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...960431.stm

However you look at it and wherever you go for your statistics, it's far less than one person a day being shot dead in a country of over 60 million people.

.
[Edited 2/15/08 19:35pm]

evenstar said:

The only gun problems one has on the estate are if our rifles get clogged with mud and the pheasants fly away.

Fauxie said:

goodness, heaven forbid!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/a...u_shooting

apparently he wasn't some evil loner, he was popular and well-adjusted. i just don't get this. unreal.

evenstar said:

It doesn't make any sense.

Shawnt25 said:

See, that's the problem right there. Teens/young adults are ignored. Constantly. Because we're just kids..we'll get over it...we're all angsty and hate authority...our problems are seen as funny or unimportant ("Try having bills to pay!!")

Sure, SOME are like that and some do get over it.

Some don't.

Evident by the increasing amounts of times high school/uni shootings are happening and how everytime the same ol' excuse is wheeled out : We didn't know he was capable of that!

Anyone is capable of destruction and all this ignoring fuels it.

This is why I despise the emo trend amongst my age group.

No adult can tell which depressed kid is actually genuinely depressed and which kid is just dying their hair black because Gerard Way's hair is black this week.

So they just ignore.

And then more kids get shot.

A guy once told me he was about to commit suicide. He said "Thanks for everything, Jess. It was nice knowing you." I went into SERIOUS panic mode. I called up the friend I'd met him through and was basically met with boredom. She told me to "pray for him". I rang a few other people and got the same response. I basically had to force someone who knew him better to contact his mother. He didn't end up doing it and sometimes I wonder why....

THIS is why this shit keeps happening.

Because we all need to pay more attention to each other and reach out if someone seems down. Don't dismiss it, don't think "He'll be right!".

You'll regret not helping a lot more than if you do try to help.

In fact, a boy that made friends with the Columbine killers was the one who was spared. Because he bothered to make an effort and didn't just resort to making fun.
[Edited 2/16/08 0:27am]

Dance said:

To say that gun control has increased deaths and crime is misleading and skewed to fit a point. It is more accurate to say that failures in enforcing our ban on guns, thus allowing wider gun ownership within those groups in society with few qualms in using them - criminals - has contributed to increased deaths and crime. Over half of the gun crime in the UK occurs in the major urban crime hotspots - London, Manchester and the West Midlands. Guns are involved 0.01% of crimes committed in the UK.

After the Dunblane massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/w...e_massacre), which was the turning point for the gun debate in the UK, the generally accepted view in Westminster was that tightening gun control, but not banning ownership, was the way. It was public pressure on the Government that drove an outright ban on handguns and other firearms designed for combat uses rather than practical purposes.The level of support for the Snowdrop Campaign (which called for a ban on handgun ownership) outstripped the counter-campaign for a protection of gun ownership rights by 10 to 1.

I tell you,there aren't many people in the UK who would argue for a repeal of that law. The people who actually need guns - farmers, pest controllers etc can get them. It's not very libertarian, but very practical, since gun ownership is unnecessary, illogical and dangerous to the average citizen. An interesting statistic - a Home Office survey of police officers, who experience the impacts of gun crimes more acutely and more often than most, showed that 80% did not wish to carry a firearm on duty.

Rowdy said:

Hello Rowdy. :mushy;

evenstar said:

Yes, because it's well-adjusted to murder a bunch of people.

The term you're looking for is sociopath.

Like I said, it has nothing to do with bullying. Crazy, evil people will do what they do.
[Edited 2/16/08 10:11am]

Dance said:[quote]

evenstar said:

not everything is as simple as you'd like it to be. now, what do you think of all the gun control info posted above?

Rowdy said:

Misleading and skewed?

It's BRIT PRESS AND PEOPLE that make these statements and release these figures.

If you want to argue about that, then post the piles of articles out there and shoot the crap out of them. Good luck.



The same can be said for issues in America. Crazy people have been doing crazy shit everywhere since FOREVER. None of this represents any country, and no country gets a pass.

My point is that you aren't going to hop on a plane and find fucking heaven in the UK.

I don't care what kind of spin you want to put on it, how you want to clean it up, or who has inane fantasies about life elsewhere. Same shit, different accents.

Sell that lie to someone else.

Dance said:

you're missing the whole point. it's not heaven, it's not completely perfect in every way, you're just far less likely to be randomly shot compared to being in the US. end of story.

Yes, of course in Great Britain it rains gumdrops and people of all races frolic naked in the streets holding hands and skipping everywhere never having to worry about catching a bullet because that never happens and if it did why they'd just touch their Brit rings together channeling their divine British powers and there'd be a protective shield that would appear out of nowhere and the bullet would melt on contact then they'd laugh and laugh and all the Americans who chose to go to school there would raise their hands in the air and give America a one finger salute or the official British two finger salute.

Dance said:

right.

evenstar said:

lemme know when you feel like discussing the issue maturely and sensibly.

purplesweat said:

The Columbine killers were not tortured kids.

http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/

http://www.salon.com/news...columbine/

Dance said:

I ask you to re-read my post and consider it in a different light. I'm not concerned about this whole UK vs USA thing that's emerged in the thread - just in giving some factual background to this debate in response to the speculation about gun crime and attitudes to it in the UK.

I can see what you're getting at with linking gun control to increased gun crime in the UK - the statistics post-1997 do indeed show an increase in firearms offences, but to make the leap immediately to blaming gun control does not represent the truth of the situation fairly, thoroughly or accurately, to the point of being misleading. There are many contributary factors to consider, far too many to list and debate here. But these include: improved reporting of gun crime, a concurrently longer list of potential firearms offences linked to making possession of certain weapons illegal, a general increase in lawlessness etc etc etc. It's also worth considering who the principal victims of gun crime are. What is for certain, is that gun control in Britain has drastically reduced the availability of combat weapons and ammunition (it would be exceptionally difficult and expensive to procure the 4 handguns and 700 rounds of ammunition carried by the Dunblane gunman for example), has largely eliminated risks associated with firearms accidents in the home and also contributed significantly to a reduction in opportunist firearms crimes. It's also worth thinking about how many Dunblanes may have been prevented by gun controls - it's easy to point to crimes that have happened, but impossible to quantify things that haven't happened, if you know what I mean. Roughly 50 people die each year from firearms-related injuries in the UK - I don't think a more permissive gun culture would reduce that - it's hard to see that trend go anywhere but up if you were to put more guns in circulation.

The British press and people do not say that gun control has increased crime, and to suggest otherwise betrays a lack of practical understanding of the UK, its press and its people. I know what the dailies say, what's on the news and what people talk about - I live there. People and press blame failures in policing that undermine a very strong and popular law and allow guns into the country, into the hands of criminals. The pro-guns argument is not on the radar here - possession of firearms just doesn't mean that much to British people.

As a citizen of the UK, I can tell you that you certainly won't find heaven here, and I never suggested that you could - gun crime is a major concern, knife crime is a massive issue and there are many other serious problems surrounding crime, justice, fairness and equality in this country. I also believe that the same popular interest in the preservation of liberties in the USA (regardless of how debatable it might be in the case of the right to bear arms) is something that would benefit the UK a great deal.