ufoclub said:

true.

Generally I think that it's easier to analyze the behavior of the opposite gender than your own. I wonder if there's a man out there who has written a similar article about women. If written correctly, it could be a very interesting read.

I think the article's main failing is that it compares today with the 1960s without giving much attention to the huge wealth of changes that gender roles have undergone in that time.

It mentions a backlash against feminism from a standpoint that men are inherently impulsive boys (a failing of the entire article, IMO). You get the impression the author feels 21st-century men have no real redeeming, romantic, commitment qualities to us.

[And, I'm not even going to waste space on how many women don't want good, commitment-minded dudes who already have the mortgage and career and want a family... Shoot... welcome to my life...]

I don't know how many women I've dated who've felt that they needed to compete with me or stake out their feminist territory, to nearly declare that my taking initiative in our relationship (though what they said they wanted) would in no way amount to their being a conquest of sorts. Or were just plain nuts.

If today's man wants to cling to sophomoric irresponsibility and noncommitment, then today's woman is equally guilty of being romantically schizophrenic in attempting to cling to divergent identities and goals.

In truth, I think neither caricature of men and women is wholly accurate. We both have enough romantic disappointments on file to justify bitterness and distrust of the opposite sex. Here's to our efforts to settle down, wed and have that ideal 2.3 children -- for those of us who aspire to such an ideal. We're in this together, y'all.

ehuffnsd said:

Partially mine, but not entirely. Men lie.

ThreadBare said:

Okay, I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a tiny bit here.

Do you think that these women who say that they want a man who will settle down, marry them, etc. but then date assholes and that these men who want to have the whole family life thing but then end up with these crazy ass women don't really want to settle down?

It's easy to blame the child-men and child-women who don't want to settle down instead of looking at why people who want to settle down are choosing to chase these people around, trying to settle down with them instead of choosing other, perhaps less exciting, people.

Just a late night rambling thought. It's not meant as a character judgement or insult in anyway.

JasmineFire said:

I'm not insulted. And, while I'm not about to deconstruct my dating disappointments now, I think both sexes definitely mature in our concepts of "marriage material."

I think even "quieter" women can suffer from being too demanding or unrealistic, just as more commitment-minded men can still be too hung up on looks.

What can be frustrating, though, is that discussions and articles such as this one typically frame the discussion of male-female relationships within the context of a woman having to compromise emotionally and a man having to learn how to grow up. It's an oversimplification that misses the boat in many cases.

ThreadBare said:

I figured that you wouldn't be too upset over it but you never know if someone else who may be reading it would be. Just covering my bum.

I know that, as a woman, it can be very hard to find the balance between being too demanding and standing up for myself in a relationship. Sometimes it seems like a man will say that a woman is being too demanding when all she wants is a phone call or a Valentine's gift.

Considering that article was written from a female point of view, it makes sense to me that it's framed in such a way that men are big babies who need to grow up.

JasmineFire said:

A nice little generalization that I'm sure, when applied to a relationship, will most likely make the person applying it, right. It won't make that person happy, but at least, it'll make 'em right.

//
[Edited 1/29/08 20:43pm]

double-post.
[Edited 1/29/08 20:42pm]

. . .
[Edited 1/30/08 18:16pm]

This article seems like little more than pushing the stigma of women that don't have children onto men also... The last thing we need is people having kids just to prove that they've grown up.

uPtoWnNY said:

that's it .. and that's what it's all about.. making yourself happy

coolcat said:

omgosh. . .we just need to start a new thread on that topic alone ..

ufoclub said:

sounds sensible to me!!!!

but seriously, haven't women always just been waiting around for their lives to start? and now that getting married and having kids (if it happens at all) happens so much later, they are "waiting around much longer". Sure they work, but I don't think they are all saving to buy property, start businesses, invest or travel, are they? I realise a small minority do take their own future into their hands, but that, historically, is a new thing.

Flowerz said:

Tell me about it. I originally come from a smallish town and most of my previous school mates are married with 2 or 3 kids. I chose a different "lifestyle" and moved to a bigger town where marriage happens at a later stage. Every time I visit, I can tell that people think I have a problem for not being like them. The most important thing to me is to be true to myself and my feelings. I just stay away from people who praise on the normality of life and do not even question themselves. People want different things at different times and it is obvious that some people do not respect people's individuality.

ufoclub said:

WTF? What does watching Project Runway have to do with the price of tomatoes in July? Or, more to the point, whether you "do or experience anything for real?"

I watch Project Runway - and so does my 70-year-old mother. We like it because we've both been making our own clothes for...let's see...almost a 100 years (between the two of us) and design interests us. In fact, I am employed by a clothing company - and a lot of us who work there love Project Runway.

One hour of a particular TV show a week...and a woman is condemned as immature. Ridiculous.

I think that there is a real gender identity crisis these days.
Men are the first ones to feel lost, things have changed... most women do not need pocket money from them anymore and can be financially independent.
Men no longer feel needed or lost their role as provider.
They show more their insecurities which is not an attractive (let's say unusual to the classic male stereotype) trait for us women.
Relationships have changed and I think both men and women have more difficulties at understanding each other. There is an underlying anger or feeling of revenge from some women who are celebrating their new found freedom.
I know that I expect men to be strong, having myself a strong personality does not help

Genesia said:

beginning to see the fallacy of the original article?

ufoclub said:

I liked that her measure of success for women was to have a job, shop, dinner with friends, and traveling.

Men that have a job, play, have drinks with friends, and get laid are children.

I think she is bitter about not getting some. Her supposed contrast is really just a matter of tastes. She is really relying on stereotypes and failing to make any real coherent point.

Mars23 said:

I think you're right about her having a chip because her own experience with some recent man in her life.

ufoclub said:

Of course not - because the article wasn't about how what people watch on TV impacts their maturity or productivity. It was about the social retardation of the current generation of young men based on the way they've been molly-coddled and allowed to remain in a state of juvenile bliss.

Genesia said:

Molly-coddled by whom? And what's wrong with remaining in a state of juvenille bliss anyway?

i think the availability of birth control and family planning will have longterm widespread affects on our culture

my mom's generation did not have a choice. they got married and when they did then they had kids. period.

NOW we have other options. including, not even getting married.

so in my opinion it's not that 'men' or 'women' are childlike or immature, we are adapting to new cirucmstances and possibilities.

coolcat said:

By their parents, primarily. Parents who've told them their entire lives that everything they do is great...that they even poop rose petals. Parents who pay their way through college (including room and board) and then let them move back home indefinitely after college.

By the educational establishment, with teachers who graded their papers in purple so their psyches wouldn't be bruised by seeing red ink on their papers. Who've let every kid who wants to be on the team be on the team - and given every one of them a medal so their feelings aren't hurt when they lose. (Yes, I said lose.) By their college professors, who've inflated their grades to the point that they don't mean anything anymore.

By their employers, who make sure their workplaces are "friendly" and 100% non-contentious. Strong opinions are discouraged because someone's feelings might get hurt. Everybody's made of spun glass. Bunch of wusses.

What's wrong with staying in a state of juvenile bliss? Everything. Life is not meant to be unabated bliss. It's meant to be a struggle - nasty, brutish and short. It's from the struggle - or, more importantly, the way we deal with the struggle - that meaning is derived.

And, no - none of what I have said above applies only to men. The women are just as bad. They've been taught to believe they can have it all - a gorgeous hunk of a husband (if they can find one), a great job and perfect children. But no one told them that's really impossible - that life is about choices and about learning to be happy with the choices you make. Even if they don't turn out to be exactly what you thought they'd be.

No, times have changed and things like computer games are no longer something that only children play.

The world's different, it evolves all the time like language, and like language, you can't keep trying to drag things back to your perceptions/stereotypes.

.
[Edited 1/30/08 8:42am]

Presenting...the soon-to-be "men" she's talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/wa...5YRvhx9NqY

Genesia said:

By that logic we should all shut off our computers, turn off our electricity, stop using our cars etc...

Mars23 said:

Or, as I tend to intrepret it, generalizations.

I'm always amazed on how SO many relationship-discussions are based on generalizations on a subject ( relationships) that is best ( & effectively, IMO) experienced as an individual experience between two people.
The mind's urge to be proven right can be so powerful, that it tends to over-ride things such as intelligence and/or perspective. So that when, another relationship goes awry, there is a tendency to proclaim "See! I was right! Men are children!" or "Women are too emotional". "The other side is more at fault than I am."
In my younger years I used to always say stuff like that. And that proclamation of being right usually prevented me from seeing what is usually considered as the most basic core problem in any relationship: that the common denominator all of my relationships was me. And therefrore, the most common problems brung into each of 'em are those the that I, myself, brung into 'em.

Maybe there are studies that show most men are a certain way.
And maybe there are other studies that show most women are another.
But the truth is, I'm not dealing with women on a general level. I'm not even dealing with the women that are in my past. I'm only dealing with the woman that I am with now (or, if I was single, the woman that I'm trying to get with now).
And the best that I can do is to try & make her feel that our relationship is ( or as a single person, will be) special, sacred & precious. And I can start by approaching her & her "problems" not as a generalization ( that's the job of articles like these), but to approach 'em as an individual experience that we are both experiencing together.
But even more important for our relationship, I need to constantly remind myself that no matter what her problems are, I can't control her & her problems. I can only control me & mine. Or at least make the effort to (& hopefully that effort will inspire her in whatever way that supports her in her journey thru all of this).

I live in a country that was founded on the basis that I should be able to carve out a life that make's me content by my own individual needs & my own particular situation. For some men, that may include marriage, for others it may not.

I'm not going to marry my girlfriend just so's I can grow up.
I'm going to marry her so that I can just grow.

Not based on a generalization that says I should.

But based on a love that says I want to.

coolcat said:

Good grief. How do you figure? Struggle isn't about, "Gee...how am I going to get to the grocery store without a car?" It's about, "How am I going to provide for myself and anyone else who comes along while creating as little trouble as possible for those around me?"

Or, "How do I conduct myself so that I am of value to my employer?" Not..."What is my employer going to do for me so that I'm happy in my job?"

Or, "How do I set a proper example for my children (or nieces or nephews), so that they know what it takes to make their way in the world?"

Computers and cars are frills. They are not central to one's being - or even one's sense of self. (At least, they shouldn't be.) But it is telling that you think they are.