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IceNine said: yamomma said: I don't think there are any absolute answers that can justify either point of view.
The fact is: truth is truth. (Not the best example but I got a lunch date with my wife) You put a pencil in a box, the truth is the pencil is in the box. No doubt about it. 5 other people saw you do it and told 100's of others that you did it. Now two thousand years later, proove it! There's an old book that says you did it, but it's been transcribed in all sorts of different languages over the years. The story still says you put a pencil in a box, just a little different. It used to say it in Hebrew then Greek, then old English. It used to say "He putteth the pencil in thy holy container of squarish porportions." Now the book reads: He put the pencil in a box. So what do you believe? All you have to go on is what ever evidence you find. True enough, but you can view the effects of disease and such and formulate an opinion on the will of god. It must be said that a creature such as god is beyond good and evil and would not be concerned with trivial human concerns... also, good and evil would not be different to a god, as it would have been the architect of both good and evil. How could it prefer one over the other if it created both? The answer is that it does not prefer one or the other, as it is beyond good and evil. ... [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 10:01:49 PDT 2002 by IceNine] Not sure, the bible only talks of His way or otherwise. Not nessisarily good and evil. That's opinion, I guess. All Rights Reserved. |
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IceNine said: I would define success as the object of creation functioning 100% exactly as intended by the creator without variation at any point.
In the case of humans and other animals, if the design was perfect, the creator obviously designed them for a life of suffering and torment, as cancers and various other debilitating illnesses cause great torment to millions of creatures every day. "Torment" is only torment because of how we choose to respond to something...a thing is just a thing, an event is just an event...it's neither "good" or "bad" in and of itself...it's how we choose to respond, react, and percieve that "thing" or event which gives it the properties and characteristics of "torment" or "bliss"...it is our free will that allows us to percieve everything in our own individual ways and lights, and ultimately which causes us to experience "torment" and "bliss"... IceNine said: Then we both agree that if god created humans and other animals, this god is the most cruel and unjust being and is not benevolent. The mere existence of disease in children goes against the idea of a benevolent and just creator. This creator must necessarily have created animals with the desire for them to suffer, as the creation is perfect.
All you've really done here, though, is superimpose your thoughts on how and why life exist onto and over God's...and said that whatever God has done has failed your desired outcome, not His...it would be no different than saying "Pollock is a horrible painter because, to me, paintings should be obvious and realistic...and this is nothing but splattered paint"...If you think so, wonderful...but others would disagree, and would see a Pollock painting 180 degrees different than you do... IceNine said: Descarte was onto something at first... "I doubt, therefore I am." This was replaced later when the church pointed out that a systemmatic process of doubting would lead to the doubting of the existence of a god.
In short, if there is a god, it is the most unimaginably cruel being possible. Ah, but you only reach that conclusion because you don't really desire to understand His reasoning...you only desire for His actions to conform to your own reasoning...and if it doesn't, then God's either cruel, or nonexistent...you've taken yourself, and your mindset, and your level of knowledge and intelligence, and set them all up as the ultimate litmus test for the realities of the universe...which, in reality, is what 95% of us do... If something doesn't make sense to us individually, then we immediately start to doubt the validity of its existence("It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so the concept that God exists is illogical")...or, we create a context in which it can exist and conform to our perceptions of logic and reason("It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so if He exists, he must be cruel and spiteful instead of all-loving")... What we do not say to ourselves, though, is this: "It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so maybe what I think are "flaws" really aren't flaws...and maybe we have far more control over experiencing "pain" than I realize..." "Discord is simply harmony which is not understood yet..." | |
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IceNine said: But... why would this creator purposely make it so that the objects of his creation would suffer great pain and horrible torment?
I would not be the god who created such misery. The bible's explination for all suffering and misery comes from absence of Him in a word called "Sin". which just means absense of God. I suppose i could go over to Texas and hit hit you over the head with a lead pipe. Although I did the act, you have to suffer. The bible is vague (to me) in this area, but clear in that pain and suffering filtered down somehow. Why does God allow it? I'd like to ask him that one day. It is speculated that he laid the foundations and has left it up to us to make it whatever we want. This world that is. All Rights Reserved. |
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wellbeyond said: IceNine said: I would define success as the object of creation functioning 100% exactly as intended by the creator without variation at any point.
In the case of humans and other animals, if the design was perfect, the creator obviously designed them for a life of suffering and torment, as cancers and various other debilitating illnesses cause great torment to millions of creatures every day. "Torment" is only torment because of how we choose to respond to something...a thing is just a thing, an event is just an event...it's neither "good" or "bad" in and of itself...it's how we choose to respond, react, and percieve that "thing" or event which gives it the properties and characteristics of "torment" or "bliss"...it is our free will that allows us to percieve everything in our own individual ways and lights, and ultimately which causes us to experience "torment" and "bliss"... IceNine responded: You are quite right... it is a matter of interpretation. I believe that a being such as god would not care about good/evil, as god is beyond good and evil. We know what we feel and experience and we all know that great pain is not desirable... god creates this and allows it to continue... god does not care about that. The suffering of a billion people is no different than the suffering of an ant to god.
Wellbeyond said: IceNine said: Then we both agree that if god created humans and other animals, this god is the most cruel and unjust being and is not benevolent. The mere existence of disease in children goes against the idea of a benevolent and just creator. This creator must necessarily have created animals with the desire for them to suffer, as the creation is perfect.
All you've really done here, though, is superimpose your thoughts on how and why life exist onto and over God's...and said that whatever God has done has failed your desired outcome, not His...it would be no different than saying "Pollock is a horrible painter because, to me, paintings should be obvious and realistic...and this is nothing but splattered paint"...If you think so, wonderful...but others would disagree, and would see a Pollock painting 180 degrees different than you do... IceNine replied: Correct again... and as I have said, a god would not share our views of morality, right and wrong, suffering and pain, etc. God would be beyond all of this and would not care one way or another...
WellBeyond said: IceNine said: Descarte was onto something at first... "I doubt, therefore I am." This was replaced later when the church pointed out that a systemmatic process of doubting would lead to the doubting of the existence of a god.
In short, if there is a god, it is the most unimaginably cruel being possible. Ah, but you only reach that conclusion because you don't really desire to understand His reasoning...you only desire for His actions to conform to your own reasoning...and if it doesn't, then God's either cruel, or nonexistent...you've taken yourself, and your mindset, and your level of knowledge and intelligence, and set them all up as the ultimate litmus test for the realities of the universe...which, in reality, is what 95% of us do... If something doesn't make sense to us individually, then we immediately start to doubt the validity of its existence("It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so the concept that God exists is illogical")...or, we create a context in which it can exist and conform to our perceptions of logic and reason("It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so if He exists, he must be cruel and spiteful instead of all-loving")... What we do not say to ourselves, though, is this: "It makes no sense for an all-loving and all-powerful God to create something that has "flaws" and causes pain...so maybe what I think are "flaws" really aren't flaws...and maybe we have far more control over experiencing "pain" than I realize..." "Discord is simply harmony which is not understood yet..." IceNine responded: We are in agreement again. The only way that we can experience the world is through our own worldview... if we were to experience the world through the eyes of god, we would be in a very poor way indeed. The suffering of billions is inconsequential to god, as evidenced by the continuation of suffering. This also lends credibility to the idea that god does not know the difference between suffering and bliss. As the creator of all good and evil, why would you choose to promote one over the other. Saying that god must be all-loving is blinding yourself to the reality of your surroudings. EDIT: Corrected faulty quotes... obviously, I am not god.  [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 10:28:02 PDT 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: We are in agreement again. The only way that we can experience the world is through our own worldview... if we were to experience the world through the eyes of god, we would be in a very poor way indeed. The suffering of billions is inconsequential to god, as evidenced by the continuation of suffering. This also lends credibility to the idea that god does not know the difference between suffering and bliss. As the creator of all good and evil, why would you choose to promote one over the other.
Saying that god must be all-loving is blinding yourself to the reality of your surroudings. There's a flaw in your logic here, amigo...lol...to say that God does not know the difference between "good" and "evil" would be to say that he doesn't know the difference between any of His creations...for God most certainly did create (or allow for) the existence of "evil"... IceNine, I remember a looong time ago (lol) you arguing against the concept of "positivity" around here, or anywhere in the world, actually...and your viewpoint was that "love" can not exist without "hate"...that both opposites need each other in order for either to truly exist within our world...I completely agree with that line of thinking...without its opposite, we would be living in the realm of the absolute...and "love" would only be a concept to "know" of, but not to really, truly experience...and it's that perception which makes me see the existence of "hate" in the world thru different eyes than someone who might think to themselves "Why does God allow so much hate to exist in the world??"... However, I also apply it to things like "pain" and "torment"...that "pleasure" and "bliss" can not exist in this world to experience without their opposites: "pain" and "torment"...I'm curious why you also don't apply this same logic and line of thinking when it comes to their existence...that you don't see them as being just as necessary as you said "hate" was to "positivity"...and that you only see them as proof that God is "cruel"...sounds to me like God was agreeing witcha... 
(..."comes go"??...:O) [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 10:42:48 PDT 2002 by wellbeyond] | |
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wellbeyond said:[quote] IceNine said: We are in agreement again. The only way that we can experience the world is through our own worldview... if we were to experience the world through the eyes of god, we would be in a very poor way indeed. The suffering of billions is inconsequential to god, as evidenced by the continuation of suffering. This also lends credibility to the idea that god does not know the difference between suffering and bliss. As the creator of all good and evil, why would you choose to promote one over the other.
Saying that god must be all-loving is blinding yourself to the reality of your surroudings. WellBeyond said: There's a flaw in your logic here, amigo...lol...to say that God does not know the difference between "good" and "evil" would be to say that he doesn't know the difference between any of His creations...for God most certainly did create (or allow for) the existence of "evil"... IceNine replied: Nope... no flaw... I simply believe that god would not care about the difference between good and evil and would experience them as the exact same thing. As you know, I do not believe in universal morality and implying that god would choose "evil" over "good" would imply that god created a universal morality. I propose that god would view the universe as pure object, as god is beyond all experience. So... yes, I believe that god would see ALL of its creations exactly the same. If anyone cares, I will post something about the principle of localized mediocrity later... it is fun. WellBeyond said: IceNine, I remember a looong time ago (lol) you arguing against the concept of "positivity" around here, or anywhere in the world, actually...and your viewpoint was that "love" can not exist without "hate"...that both opposites need each other in order for either to truly exist within our world...I completely agree with that line of thinking...without its opposite, we would be living in the realm of the absolute...and "love" would only be a concept to "know" of, but not to really, truly experience...and it's that perception which makes me see the existence of "hate" in the world thru different eyes than someone who might think to themselves "Why does God allow so much hate to exist in the world??"... IceNine replied: Correct again, my learned colleague. We could not know happiness if we didn't know pain. All things have an opposite and each are necessary for perception... but I believe that there is no value judgment between the two to god. WellBeyond said: However, I also apply it to things like "pain" and "torment"...that "pleasure" and "bliss" can not exist in this world to experience without their opposites: "pain" and "torment"...I'm curious why you also don't apply this same logic and line of thinking when it comes go their existence...that you don't see them as being just as necessary as you said "hate" was to "positivity"...and that you only see them as proof that God is "cruel"...sounds to me like God was agreeing witcha... IceNine replied: We are actually in agreement here again... without the negative, you would not know the positive... they are all necessary here, as we would not know anything different if they did not exist. On the other hand, god could have imbued the objects of his creation with an innate knowledge of happiness, etc. if god even knew what those things were. It is a difficult question, no?
... [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 10:50:06 PDT 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: Nope... no flaw... I simply believe that god would not care about the difference between good and evil and would experience them as the exact same thing. As you know, I do not believe in universal morality and implying that god would choose "evil" over "good" would imply that god created a universal morality. I propose that god would view the universe as pure object, as god is beyond all experience. So... yes, I believe that god would see ALL of its creations exactly the same. If anyone cares, I will post something about the principle of localized mediocrity later... it is fun.
Ah, ok...I took (or take..lol) "God doesn't know the difference" to be different than "God doesn't care about the difference"...so I stand corrected...
IceNine replied: Correct again, my learned colleague. We could not know happiness if we didn't know pain. All things have an opposite and each are necessary for perception...
So then...if one of God's desires for his creation was for them to perceive and experience--and not just know the concept of--things like love and bliss and pleasure...wouldn't it be necessary for Him to make sure that whatever He designs allows for their opposites of hate, torment and pain to exist??...if so, then could you really say that the existence of things like pain and torment are "flaws" and evidence of a "poorly designed creation"?? IceNine said: We are in agreement once again... they are all necessary here, as we would not know anything different if they did not exist.
On the other hand, god could have imbued the objects of his creation with an innate knowledge of happiness, etc. if god even knew what those things were. It is a difficult question, no?
Um...no, not really...lol It's one thing to have an innate knowledge of things like happiness and love..and I actually feel we are imbedded with that innate knowledge...but knowing of something and experiencing it are two vastly different things...I do believe God wanted us--and created us--to experience these things, and to not simply know of the concept of them...thus, this type of world we live in seems perfectly created and designed for us to experience love and happiness fully...as well as to experience having free will...in the realm of the absolute, where only love and bliss and pleasure exist, there is no free will, because there are no "choices" to make... | |
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wellbeyond said:[quote] IceNine said: Nope... no flaw... I simply believe that god would not care about the difference between good and evil and would experience them as the exact same thing. As you know, I do not believe in universal morality and implying that god would choose "evil" over "good" would imply that god created a universal morality. I propose that god would view the universe as pure object, as god is beyond all experience. So... yes, I believe that god would see ALL of its creations exactly the same. If anyone cares, I will post something about the principle of localized mediocrity later... it is fun.
Ah, ok...I took (or take..lol) "God doesn't know the difference" to be different than "God doesn't care about the difference"...so I stand corrected...
IceNine replied: Correct again, my learned colleague. We could not know happiness if we didn't know pain. All things have an opposite and each are necessary for perception...
WellBeyond said: So then...if one of God's desires for his creation was for them to perceive and experience--and not just know the concept of--things like love and bliss and pleasure...wouldn't it be necessary for Him to make sure that whatever He designs allows for their opposites of hate, torment and pain to exist??...if so, then could you really say that the existence of things like pain and torment are "flaws" and evidence of a "poorly designed creation"?? IceNine replied: But... we are once again guessing at the will of god if we say that god wants anything. It ends up being a circular argument, as we cannot know the mind of god. BUT: If god wanted people to have to experience pain, his plan is working. My problem with it is that this god allows unfathomable suffering to occur and allows it to happen to millions and millions of people... this assessment does not apply to the mind of god, as god has no reason to care about that. WellBeyond said: IceNine said: We are in agreement once again... they are all necessary here, as we would not know anything different if they did not exist.
On the other hand, god could have imbued the objects of his creation with an innate knowledge of happiness, etc. if god even knew what those things were. It is a difficult question, no?
Um...no, not really...lol It's one thing to have an innate knowledge of things like happiness and love..and I actually feel we are imbedded with that innate knowledge...but knowing of something and experiencing it are two vastly different things...I do believe God wanted us--and created us--to experience these things, and to not simply know of the concept of them...thus, this type of world we live in seems perfectly created and designed for us to experience love and happiness fully...as well as to experience having free will...in the realm of the absolute, where only love and bliss and pleasure exist, there is no free will, because there are no "choices" to make...IceNine replied: But... if you were an all-powerful being, you could implant the exact same memories of feelings into people, along with all the connected experiences... if you chose to do so. Kinda like in "Total Recall" when they implanted a trip to Mars or wherever... your memory would be exactly that of someone who actually experienced these things... This goes back to the old philosophical argument about the body being a vehicle for the enrichment of the soul via experience. I have never believed in the existence of a soul, so that argument doesn't work for me. What we have here is a difference of opinion and which one of us is right can never be demonstrated. In fact, we are both wrong... and we both know it! If there is a god, it laughs at our simple-minded attempts to understand its will.
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IceNine said: What we have here is a difference of opinion and which one of us is right can never be demonstrated. In fact, we are both wrong... and we both know it! If there is a god, it laughs at our simple-minded attempts to understand its will.
Two sides of the same coin. :p | |
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IceNine said: But... we are once again guessing at the will of god if we say that god wants anything. It ends up being a circular argument, as we cannot know the mind of god.
BUT: If god wanted people to have to experience pain, his plan is working. With me, it's better to say, "If God wanted people to experience love, his plan is working"...that way, we focus more on the ultimate desired destination, and not on the smaller technicalities that are needed to get us there...
My problem with it is that this god allows unfathomable suffering to occur and allows it to happen to millions and millions of people... this assessment does not apply to the mind of god, as god has no reason to care about that.
To me, if we go with the idea that God does indeed want us to experience true, full love, unquestionable bliss and ultimate pleasure, then He would have to allow what you called "unfathomable suffering" to occur...remember, one can not exist without the other...not to mention that we as humans, as His creation, also allow this suffering to occur to millions and millions of people...I'm not a big fan of taking ourselves out of the equation, as if we really don't have much to do with the state of this world or of our lives or our health... IceNine replied: But... if you were an all-powerful being, you could implant the exact same memories of feelings into people, along with all the connected experiences... if you chose to do so. Kinda like in "Total Recall" when they implanted a trip to Mars or wherever... your memory would be exactly that of someone who actually experienced these things... What's the difference, though, really??...If you have imbedded into your mind and soul and psyche the experience of, say, a horrific rape occuring to you...to the point that you relive it fully and don't doubt for one nanosecond that it truly happened...if that imbedded memory is meant to have all the power of a "real" memory formed from a "real" event that took place in your life, then are you really eliminating suffering??...Afterall, it's our memories have all the power, not the experience of the even itself...so imbedding us with the memories of tormenting experiences is truly no different than allowing us to experience them firsthand...besides, doing it that way eliminates allowing us to have free will, and to experience things like enlightenment and self-discovery... What we have here is a difference of opinion and which one of us is right can never be demonstrated. In fact, we are both wrong... and we both know it! If there is a god, it laughs at our simple-minded attempts to understand its will.
LoL..well, I for one believe that God wants his creations to attempt to understand both Him and why they exist...so I highly doubt he's laughing at us when we're doing exactly what He designed us to do... If anything, He's smiling and encouraging us on in our efforts...And while I agree that neither of us can "prove" we're "right" or that the other is "wrong", I think the mere exercise of debate, of finding "holes" in another's arguments and allowing them to find "holes" in yours, is healthy and only helps to strengthen the individual beliefs that we as humans hold...we never know how strong anything in our lives and minds and hearts are until they're tested, so I try to not look at any "adversity" as a negative...because it only helps me more fully know myself...and it's also why I never shy away from debates anywhere at anytime for any reason...lol (um, if ya couldn't tell, that is...)... | |
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Dang! I like this..this is a deep thread!! Thought provoking...very deep!!! Great debate by both sides. Keep it going please. _______________________________________________________________________________________ You can hate me for who I am, cuz I won't be something that i'm not. | |
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This is an interesting thread.
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wellbeyond said: IceNine said: But... we are once again guessing at the will of god if we say that god wants anything. It ends up being a circular argument, as we cannot know the mind of god.
BUT: If god wanted people to have to experience pain, his plan is working. With me, it's better to say, "If God wanted people to experience love, his plan is working"...that way, we focus more on the ultimate desired destination, and not on the smaller technicalities that are needed to get us there... IceNine replied: Two sides of the same coin again!
WellBeyond said: IceNine said:
My problem with it is that this god allows unfathomable suffering to occur and allows it to happen to millions and millions of people... this assessment does not apply to the mind of god, as god has no reason to care about that.
To me, if we go with the idea that God does indeed want us to experience true, full love, unquestionable bliss and ultimate pleasure, then He would have to allow what you called "unfathomable suffering" to occur...remember, one can not exist without the other...not to mention that we as humans, as His creation, also allow this suffering to occur to millions and millions of people...I'm not a big fan of taking ourselves out of the equation, as if we really don't have much to do with the state of this world or of our lives or our health... IceNine replied: We are most certainly a HUGE part of the equation, but our loving and benevolent god could stop the evildoers. Even if I believed in god, I would think that the evils of the world would continue for the reasons that I stated earlier. The idea that we must know pain to know pleasure is a product of human reasoning and there is no good reason to believe that god could not imbue his creations with the knowledge of happiness without sorrow. WellBeyond said: IceNine replied: But... if you were an all-powerful being, you could implant the exact same memories of feelings into people, along with all the connected experiences... if you chose to do so. Kinda like in "Total Recall" when they implanted a trip to Mars or wherever... your memory would be exactly that of someone who actually experienced these things... What's the difference, though, really??...If you have imbedded into your mind and soul and psyche the experience of, say, a horrific rape occuring to you...to the point that you relive it fully and don't doubt for one nanosecond that it truly happened...if that imbedded memory is meant to have all the power of a "real" memory formed from a "real" event that took place in your life, then are you really eliminating suffering??...Afterall, it's our memories have all the power, not the experience of the even itself...so imbedding us with the memories of tormenting experiences is truly no different than allowing us to experience them firsthand...besides, doing it that way eliminates allowing us to have free will, and to experience things like enlightenment and self-discovery... IceNine replied: The difference is that millions of people don't have to die of horrible diseases, war, famine, starvation, etc. The knowledge of these things could be innate if god did not truly want the objects of its creation to suffer and die horribly. Freewill is a bit of a problem for god, as the biblical version of this creature gives its creations freewill and demands that they do not do certain things and that they worship it. Why would an omnipotent and benevolent super-being require that its creations worship it? This idea has always struck me as funny, as this god allegedly created everyone and everything, yet it requires worship... that is monumentally egotistical for a god, don't you think? WellBeyond said: IceNine said:
What we have here is a difference of opinion and which one of us is right can never be demonstrated. In fact, we are both wrong... and we both know it! If there is a god, it laughs at our simple-minded attempts to understand its will.
LoL..well, I for one believe that God wants his creations to attempt to understand both Him and why they exist...so I highly doubt he's laughing at us when we're doing exactly what He designed us to do... If anything, He's smiling and encouraging us on in our efforts...And while I agree that neither of us can "prove" we're "right" or that the other is "wrong", I think the mere exercise of debate, of finding "holes" in another's arguments and allowing them to find "holes" in yours, is healthy and only helps to strengthen the individual beliefs that we as humans hold...we never know how strong anything in our lives and minds and hearts are until they're tested, so I try to not look at any "adversity" as a negative...because it only helps me more fully know myself...and it's also why I never shy away from debates anywhere at anytime for any reason...lol (um, if ya couldn't tell, that is...)...IceNine replied: I really hate my earlier statement, as I hate to pin human emotions on god... I was making god into the dreaded anthropomorphic diety and made him laugh... shame on me. Laughter is a human action and is tied to human perceptions and feelings... there is no way that god thinks or perceives as we do, therefore god would not laugh at things that we find amusing. Now... debate, on the other hand, is a great thing. I love it more than anyone would ever guess... and it is fun to do with someone who is also intelligent! Debating this issue with a zealot would not have been an issue, as they would be telling you EXACTLY what god said, meant and wants.
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I really can't add much to this topic, as Wellbeyond has said everything that I would have said, except he's said it more eloquently. LOL
The only thing I would like to add is this: Ice let's say for a moment that you are God. You are all there is. There is nothing else except for you. Now you want to experience who you are. You want to experience yourself from every different angle possible. (Which is millions upon millions of different possibilities.) So you create human kind. Now since all there is is you, all you have to create from is yourself. So in essence you have just created human kind from yourself. In order for you to know who you are from angle imaginable, everything has to be possible. Pain, death, fear, bliss, life, and love. It all has to be possible. Now God could order us to love Him and we would have to obey. But is love love when you are ordered to do so? If your creation only knows good and joy and love, then they forget God. You keep saying that God doesn't care about good and bad. You are right that God is above those things. Good and bad were human creations. God created, man judged. It is once man can rise above the good and bad that man can begin to experience the total wonder of creation. And yes men can rise above good and bad. Man can stop judging, it's choice. We experience whatever is occuring in that moment and we do not judge until we think of it and by that time it is past and a new experience is occuring. If we spend all of our time judging things as good and bad, wrong or right, we forget to experience the moment in it's purity. You also keep blaming God for all the "bad" in the world. How can God allow a child to suffer? How can man allow a child to suffer? If you look at the starving kids in Ethiopa men are allowing that to happen. We have the means and the ability to feed everyone in the world, and yet we say "It's not my problem." We pass homeless on the streets, and we turn a blind eye. We continue to advance technologically and we continue to build our defenses yet we cut funds to research cancer and other diseases. Our state hospitals are full and turning away the mentally ill unless they are a danger to themselves and others, because funds have gotten cut and they just have no room to take more in. The more we advance, the more diseases we discover. The more we become a microwave world, stress rates continue to increase, as do heart problems, high blood pressure, cancers, etc. We are doing these things to ourselves with the free will that we were given. God isn't a dispassionate being, but we have free will to choose Him, and that is all that He waits for. We choose what we will experience. We live our life to the best that we can, or most people do. And God suffers with us, because God is within us. Have you ever awakened a minute before the alarm clock went off? Have you ever left the house and a voice inside of your head said "You left the coffee maker on"? Is it too hard to imagine that these are gentle nudges from God (higher self) reminding you so that you won't be hurt in someway? It's up to us if we decide to listen to that voice. | |
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LittleRedCorvette said: I really can't add much to this topic, as Wellbeyond has said everything that I would have said, except he's said it more eloquently. LOL
The only thing I would like to add is this: Ice let's say for a moment that you are God. You are all there is. There is nothing else except for you. Now you want to experience who you are. You want to experience yourself from every different angle possible. (Which is millions upon millions of different possibilities.) So you create human kind. Now since all there is is you, all you have to create from is yourself. So in essence you have just created human kind from yourself. IceNine replied: Why would god require anything? If god created everything and is omnipotent, it is necessary to admit that this god would know all possible outcomes of all possible actions and would not need a human chess set to act out its whims. LRC continued: In order for you to know who you are from angle imaginable, everything has to be possible. Pain, death, fear, bliss, life, and love. It all has to be possible. Now God could order us to love Him and we would have to obey. But is love love when you are ordered to do so? If your creation only knows good and joy and love, then they forget God. IceNine replied: A non-egotistical god would not require worship, nor would it need recognition. True altruism in humans is in acts done anonymously and without the desire or need for recognition for the act. Why would an omnipotent being be petty enough to require worship, recognition or adulation? The answer is that god was made up by humans and humans put their own needs into him. LRC continued: You keep saying that God doesn't care about good and bad. You are right that God is above those things. Good and bad were human creations. God created, man judged. It is once man can rise above the good and bad that man can begin to experience the total wonder of creation. And yes men can rise above good and bad. Man can stop judging, it's choice. We experience whatever is occuring in that moment and we do not judge until we think of it and by that time it is past and a new experience is occuring. If we spend all of our time judging things as good and bad, wrong or right, we forget to experience the moment in it's purity. IceNine replied: Mankind cannot rise above good and evil or they would become god. Humans will always judge actions and outcomes according to their moral code... if a human was beyond good and evil, all actions would be the same to them and murder would be as acceptable as rescuing a man from drowning. How would you experience the pure moment of a murderer removing the entrails from a victim? Would you think that it was a good action or a bad action? God would not care about that act. LRC continued: You also keep blaming God for all the "bad" in the world. How can God allow a child to suffer? How can man allow a child to suffer? If you look at the starving kids in Ethiopa men are allowing that to happen. We have the means and the ability to feed everyone in the world, and yet we say "It's not my problem." We pass homeless on the streets, and we turn a blind eye. We continue to advance technologically and we continue to build our defenses yet we cut funds to research cancer and other diseases. Our state hospitals are full and turning away the mentally ill unless they are a danger to themselves and others, because funds have gotten cut and they just have no room to take more in. The more we advance, the more diseases we discover. The more we become a microwave world, stress rates continue to increase, as do heart problems, high blood pressure, cancers, etc. We are doing these things to ourselves with the free will that we were given. God isn't a dispassionate being, but we have free will to choose Him, and that is all that He waits for. We choose what we will experience. We live our life to the best that we can, or most people do. And God suffers with us, because God is within us. IceNine replied: If god cared about humanity, it would no allow these things to occur. You cannot sit passively by and still be passionate about the fate of your creation. You can sit passively and watch characters in a videogame slaughter each other because they do not matter to you and are inconsequential. Thinking that a god would care about you is monumentally egotistical, as god has the entire universe to worry about. LRC continued: Have you ever awakened a minute before the alarm clock went off? Have you ever left the house and a voice inside of your head said "You left the coffee maker on"? Is it too hard to imagine that these are gentle nudges from God (higher self) reminding you so that you won't be hurt in someway? It's up to us if we decide to listen to that voice. IceNine replied: God does not provide wake-up calls... if we reduce god to that, why not ask him to remove difficult stains from our clothing? ... [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 13:31:16 PDT 2002 by IceNine] SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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IceNine said: I really hate my earlier statement, as I hate to pin human emotions on god... I was making god into the dreaded anthropomorphic diety and made him laugh... shame on me. Laughter is a human action and is tied to human perceptions and feelings... there is no way that god thinks or perceives as we do, therefore god would not laugh at things that we find amusing.
Oh come on now... Sure God has a scense of humor! Look at the platapus! I'm a father now and I'm sure I have a heck-a lot more expeirieces to have, but I can't help but to think of things from a different point of view now. I know I'm only going to be able give my child answers he can understand at the time. Ultimately, it's up to me on how he's going to turn out. Although, one day, I'll have to let him go. And what he does on his own, he desides on his own. The love I have for this child has surpassed all my understanding of what "love" used to be. And I can't help but think "someone" feels the same as I do right now for this whole creation. I really think that's what it's all about: A big God decided to have children one day. and whalla... here we are! All Rights Reserved. |
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IceNine said: We are most certainly a HUGE part of the equation, but our loving and benevolent god could stop the evildoers.
This kinda reminds me of how when a teenager is doin' stuff to get themselves in trouble with the law--drugs, shoplifting, whatever--and their dad doesn't bail 'em out of jail to help "teach them a lesson"...and the kid's only response is "If you loved me, dad, you'd get me out of here"...sometimes the best and most loving thing a parent can do for their children is to let them make their own mistakes, learn from them, and become better, more fully developed individuals...God could simply be letting us make our own "mistakes", so to speak...to learn from them and to develop into healthier, more fully developed human beings as a result... Even if I believed in god, I would think that the evils of the world would continue for the reasons that I stated earlier. The idea that we must know pain to know pleasure is a product of human reasoning and there is no good reason to believe that god could not imbue his creations with the knowledge of happiness without sorrow.
I think we must experience pain, not just know pain, to experience and know pleasure...so embedding this knowledge inside us only goes halfway... Freewill is a bit of a problem for god, as the biblical version of this creature gives its creations freewill and demands that they do not do certain things and that they worship it. Why would an omnipotent and benevolent super-being require that its creations worship it? This idea has always struck me as funny, as this god allegedly created everyone and everything, yet it requires worship... that is monumentally egotistical for a god, don't you think?
It's one reason I don't adhere to the Bible as some others do...lol...nor do I believe in an eternity of damnation in a burning Hell...my own philosophy is that God does not want us to worship Him...but to truly worship and value and understand the very real beauty of everything in existence...and that when we do, we will "worship" that which we see and experience, as well as truly value and appreciate--"worship"--He who created it all...just as a parallel, it's like saying Prince doesn't want us to worship him, he wants us to see the beauty inside the music he creates...and when we do fully, we'll in essence "worship" that music because of that beauty, and by connection fully appreciate and value the creator of that which we "worship"... Course, this doesn't explain "We Gets Up", but still...
IceNine replied: I really hate my earlier statement, as I hate to pin human emotions on god... I was making god into the dreaded anthropomorphic diety and made him laugh... shame on me. Laughter is a human action and is tied to human perceptions and feelings... there is no way that god thinks or perceives as we do, therefore god would not laugh at things that we find amusing. LoL..Oh, I know you didn't mean it literally, mon ami... We just used our human emotions and expressions to better illustrate our viewpoints, that's all...
Now... debate, on the other hand, is a great thing. I love it more than anyone would ever guess... and it is fun to do with someone who is also intelligent! Debating this issue with a zealot would not have been an issue, as they would be telling you EXACTLY what god said, meant and wants.
SO true...!!!...It's not debate when the only response you get is "The Bible says..." or "God will smite the evildoers when He brings his wrath upon the earth"...with what you and I have been doing, it's more a debate about the underlying philosophies moreso than about "facts" (which you already said perfectly can't be shown to be facts at all)...and in reality you and I agree on far, far more points than we disagree on...lol.. | |
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wellbeyond said: IceNine said: We are most certainly a HUGE part of the equation, but our loving and benevolent god could stop the evildoers.
This kinda reminds me of how when a teenager is doin' stuff to get themselves in trouble with the law--drugs, shoplifting, whatever--and their dad doesn't bail 'em out of jail to help "teach them a lesson"...and the kid's only response is "If you loved me, dad, you'd get me out of here"...sometimes the best and most loving thing a parent can do for their children is to let them make their own mistakes, learn from them, and become better, more fully developed individuals...God could simply be letting us make our own "mistakes", so to speak...to learn from them and to develop into healthier, more fully developed human beings as a result... IceNine replied: The biggest difference is that my dad won't send me into a lake of fire for all eternity if I don't learn my lesson and worship him! Back to WellBeyond: IceNine said:
Even if I believed in god, I would think that the evils of the world would continue for the reasons that I stated earlier. The idea that we must know pain to know pleasure is a product of human reasoning and there is no good reason to believe that god could not imbue his creations with the knowledge of happiness without sorrow.
I think we must experience pain, not just know pain, to experience and know pleasure...so embedding this knowledge inside us only goes halfway... IceNine replied: This is a hard point to debate... I have no real opinion on the matter.  And, now for WellBeyond: IceNine said:
Freewill is a bit of a problem for god, as the biblical version of this creature gives its creations freewill and demands that they do not do certain things and that they worship it. Why would an omnipotent and benevolent super-being require that its creations worship it? This idea has always struck me as funny, as this god allegedly created everyone and everything, yet it requires worship... that is monumentally egotistical for a god, don't you think?
It's one reason I don't adhere to the Bible as some others do...lol...nor do I believe in an eternity of damnation in a burning Hell...my own philosophy is that God does not want us to worship Him...but to truly worship and value and understand the very real beauty of everything in existence...and that when we do, we will "worship" that which we see and experience, as well as truly value and appreciate--"worship"--He who created it all...just as a parallel, it's like saying Prince doesn't want us to worship him, he wants us to see the beauty inside the music he creates...and when we do fully, we'll in essence "worship" that music because of that beauty, and by connection fully appreciate and value the creator of that which we "worship"... Course, this doesn't explain "We Gets Up", but still... IceNine replied: Damn, you defeated my "hell as punishment" argument by not believing in hell-fire! Your conception of god is a billion times better than the fire and brimstone fundamentalist view and 99.95% of all others.
Okay... so, for MOST christians and such... the idea of burning in hell for not believing is the product of a monumentally egotistical and petty god. WellBeyond continued: IceNine replied: I really hate my earlier statement, as I hate to pin human emotions on god... I was making god into the dreaded anthropomorphic diety and made him laugh... shame on me. Laughter is a human action and is tied to human perceptions and feelings... there is no way that god thinks or perceives as we do, therefore god would not laugh at things that we find amusing. LoL..Oh, I know you didn't mean it literally, mon ami... We just used our human emotions and expressions to better illustrate our viewpoints, that's all...IceNine replied: Yep... true, true...
WellBeyond said: IceNine said:
Now... debate, on the other hand, is a great thing. I love it more than anyone would ever guess... and it is fun to do with someone who is also intelligent! Debating this issue with a zealot would not have been an issue, as they would be telling you EXACTLY what god said, meant and wants.
SO true...!!!...It's not debate when the only response you get is "The Bible says..." or "God will smite the evildoers when He brings his wrath upon the earth"...with what you and I have been doing, it's more a debate about the underlying philosophies moreso than about "facts" (which you already said perfectly can't be shown to be facts at all)...and in reality you and I agree on far, far more points than we disagree on...lol.. IceNine replied: I noticed that!
This is fun!!! SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
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Well then, What exactly is Faith? Because sometimes it is what you are left with when all logical expressions seem defeated. -------------------------------------------------
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feltbluish said: Well then, What exactly is Faith? Because sometimes it is what you are left with when all logical expressions seem defeated.
Faith is the absence of a need for proof to believe in the reality of things...it's also, to me anyway, an extremely powerful engine within us all that helps propel the seemingly "impossible" to become possible... | |
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God, omniprescent, all knowing, everywhere, loving? Many shibboleth dictates a deity that is unseen, all knowing, loving and ever present. The tertiary order of such beliefs is true, through teachings, beliefs, meditation, etc. The thought process of belief enters the mind in a subsequent pattern by many believers, therefore God is created. The thematic teachings vary, as do thought patterns, therefore creating sects, cults, atheists, etc. Everybody, every soul, every energy, believe in a God...forestalling energy impulses to believe, or disbelieve. Every soul have a subsensible erratic thought impulse to believe, to ponder, reject, or dissect a God. Creation is in direct order of a subsequent thought, always obeying in a subsequential manner. Since God is created by variable thought patterns, God is in direct order to every believer, or disbeliever. The substratal teachings brings God to life, therefore God is a substantial thought invoked Ego, or egos. Heretic beliefs may appear unimpressionable to the believer, or vice versa. Repeated supplementation of ideas, teachings and beliefs resonate a reasoning within one's self, it must resonate a reasoning within one's self, and it will resonate a reasoning within one's self. For example, Thanatism beliefs display no evidence to support such claims. God alone display no evidence to support his creation of all things. Believers must display a ego God to give meaning to their beliefs and convictions. | |
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wellbeyond said: feltbluish said: Well then, What exactly is Faith? Because sometimes it is what you are left with when all logical expressions seem defeated.
Faith is the absence of a need for proof to believe in the reality of things...it's also, to me anyway, an extremely powerful engine within us all that helps propel the seemingly "impossible" to become possible... But am I looking for proof in believing what I believe? I feel all my beliefs ARE proven. I feel GOD has my back with my faith in him. Therefore, just because I can't prove someone else's points wrong or right to THEIR satisfaction, does it mean if I'm not satisfied with someone else's proof, I'm wrong anyway? -------------------------------------------------
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You guys all realize we havn't really grown a bit since ancient Egyptian and ancient Greek days, don't you?
Not in our understanding of our presence anyway... [This message was edited Tue Oct 22 14:40:38 PDT 2002 by feltbluish] -------------------------------------------------
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feltbluish said: But am I looking for proof in believing what I believe?
I feel all my beliefs ARE proven. I feel GOD has my back with my faith in him. If you "feel" it, then it's not really "proven"...it's faith which causes you to believe it's real...and it's faith which causes it to become real... Therefore, just because I can't prove someone else's points wrong or right to THEIR satisfaction, does it mean if I'm not satisfied with someone else's proof, I'm wrong anyway?
Huh??..lol... | |
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wellbeyond said: feltbluish said: But am I looking for proof in believing what I believe?
I feel all my beliefs ARE proven. I feel GOD has my back with my faith in him. If you "feel" it, then it's not really "proven"...it's faith which causes you to believe it's real...and it's faith which causes it to become real... Therefore, just because I can't prove someone else's points wrong or right to THEIR satisfaction, does it mean if I'm not satisfied with someone else's proof, I'm wrong anyway?
Huh??..lol... I kinda thought that too... 
But I know what I'm trying to say...or ask... -------------------------------------------------
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LoL!!...Well, I thought that I might kinda sorta know what it was you were maybe possibly trying to say...or ask...but then I thought that I could maybe kinda be possibly wrong, so I asked you to ask me again, thus creating even more confusion between us...
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Ok, so I'll try again...just cuz he sez so duzn't mean its true, same goes fer me
I see proof all around me that God is there, and because Ice doesn't accept that proof doesn't make either of us right...which I think you guys already said philosophy rocks!!!  -------------------------------------------------
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feltbluish said: Ok, so I'll try again...just cuz he sez so duzn't mean its true, same goes fer me
I see proof all around me that God is there, and because Ice doesn't accept that proof doesn't make either of us right...which I think you guys already said philosophy rocks!!! LoL...beautifully said nonetheless... | |
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Well, even the archeologist acknowledges that there were maybe 20 cases of father and brothers being named respectively Joseph, Jesus and James. The determinant factor seems to be that brothers were not generally named, so this Jesus had to be famous. I find this kind of pale as evidence, but since I don't doubt there was a preacher Jesus, I wish he's right and it's really the remains of Jesus' brother. | |
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Aerogram said: Well, even the archeologist acknowledges that there were maybe 20 cases of father and brothers being named respectively Joseph, Jesus and James. The determinant factor seems to be that brothers were not generally named, so this Jesus had to be famous. I find this kind of pale as evidence, but since I don't doubt there was a preacher Jesus, I wish he's right and it's really the remains of Jesus' brother.
But do you believe this 'preacher Jesus' was the King of the Jews and gave his life on the cross for your salvation? That's the ?  -------------------------------------------------
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