No he didnt do them, thats why he's weighing in. Hopefully Dale will be the first in A LONG LINE of former players who were clean that come forward and speak about how baseball has a choice now, and the choice is simple, "clean it up" or "Cover it up". Its that simple, i know everyone wants to make this about Clemens and Bonds because they are the stars, but the fact of the matter is that there are about 200 overall players that will be listed, current and recenlty out of baseball in the last 10 years. And already criminals like Scott Boras is making excuses for HGH saying that its not banned and doctors prescribe it all the time. BULLSHIT if its so legal why are these players like Rick Ankiel who never could even pitch, suddenly became an outfielder who hit 10 homeruns in 7 games, why was he buying it on the internet and not getting it from the TEAM doctor? the same goes for Andy Petite who got his from another pusher for his injury problems, but why not go to your TEAM DOCTOR once again? Reason because it wasnt a legal thing, case closed. One thing about Baseball, injuries are part of the game, talk to Sandy Koufax, probably the best pitcher ever who had to retire at the age of 30 because his arm was shot, if that was today, he would still be playing because of HGH, so is that fair? No its not, injuries are a part of playing the game and if your career ends because your arm is shot, you are not allowed to go buy a boinic fake arm. The same goes for people like McGwire and Bonds who seemed to HIT puberty at age 35, both of these guys careers should have been over, Mark McGwire had back surgery, which NO ONE comes back from (ask keith hernandez) but what did Mcgwire do after surgery? Break Roger Maris record. As Dale Murphy said in an interview, these guys who did it need to come clean and HELP clean up the game if they are seriously worried about Baseball or just their pockets, as Dale Murphy said why would wanna cover up for these guys now, he said its one of the reasons that no one ever gets caught betting on baseball. Lets not forget that, that with the exception Pete Rose is the only one to go down for that, though you know its going on ALL the time too. so my hope is that everyone involved will go down for this, i mean "fess the fuck up", if you have an injury you dont by a miracle drug not even sanctioned by the FDA nor team doctors, also Murphy said that its time that everyone is tested on a continous basis to show that at least the game is doing something, and that means the players union has to give in and force these players to give blood tests from now on.

I think they should just legalize them.
It should be part of the game.
Its all about performance anyway.

horatio said:

Not really, its about playing the game 100%, thats really the issue is that Baseball gave into the mentality of high scores crazy homeruns and things like that. Look at someone like Pete Rose, this guy was NOT a good fielder, NOT a good runner, NOT good at anything but he always busted it out, I mean he collided at Home Plate with Ray Fosse in an all-star game and broke the guys arm and ended his career because like Pete said "we wanted to win and we had the chance" nowadays guys are babies with things like the all star game, its not even a game as it is a gathering of the highest paid. Like i said before the real honest time for baseball was the era between the 60's -the 80's. After that the business really took over, and owners were to blame as much as players, but things like a salary cap in baseball would be a blessing at this point!

I don't discount athletes that take steroids. Marion Jones & Barry Bonds are great athletes whether or not they took them.

But they obviously do give you an edge if your great to begin with.

The problem I have with steroids is that they're not good for you, and why should an athlete have to take dangerous drugs so that he can compete at the highest levels?

NDRU said:

Im more or less bothered by the fact that alot of these guys, prolonged their careers, which in a way is stealing money and stealing a spot from someone else, anything they did on the field is in question from that point on also. Of course the danger aspect is there too, as it will have an effect long after more for others, and also its just wrong, i look at guys from the 60s-80s whose careers ended on injuries and just because of diminished skills and then i see guys blasting 70 homeruns a year after back surgery and call me old school, but thats not legit, and anything they acheived has to be taken as being tainted or artificial.

lastdecember said:

Its the future and its science. There will be trials and such. But its going to be like this. Its like fighting stem cell research or things of that sort. Its only in the spot light because there will be a final solution of regulations that allow the use of performance enhancing drugs.

lastdecember said:

Essentially I agree with you. I'm a bit of a nature boy. I see the argument that says "let's just see people perform at the highest level possible" and I understand it.

But that kind of takes some of the poetry out of sports. Sports (to me) celebrates the natural potential of the human body, and once you introduce unnatural shit into the equation, it's more like watching a robot blast a home run. Impressive, but not beautiful.

horatio said:

Perhaps there will be two leagues. I think body building has two competitions, natural and "anything goes." And the anything goes people get a more attention, but they are a freakshow as much as anything.

NDRU said:

Im sure.

It's the code. Ballplayers live by the code and rule #1 is: Don't rat out your colleagues.

You brought up betting. For some reason, the story of Paul LoDuca never made headlines.

But last summer, Paul LoDuca owed the wrong kind of people money. He didn't cover his bets one day, and the goons showed up in the Mets locer room, looking for LoDuca and their money.

You'll note that the Mets did not attempt to re-sign Paul LoDuca this year.
[Edited 12/17/07 11:35am]

Concerning steroids: cheating is cheating.

Those of you that are pro-steroids will never see a game on the up-and-up unless everyone is juiced.

Otherwise, it's the cheaters vs. the hard-workers.

RodeoSchro said:

Well Loduca bothered me on a personal note mainly because he took a guys place that was one of the greatest "legit" hitters of his day in Mike Piazza, the Loduca thing was headlines here in Nyc for a few days and than it vanished, and so to now see him on the steroid list for his dodger days doesnt surprise me at all and makes more angry since the mets let a true player go. I wasnt surprised he wasnt resigned mainly because he had issues with the manager and i think they knew he was going to be involved in the steroid scandal.

horatio said:

The difference one is a game and the other is life, stem cell research is to save people and make them walk and fight disease, but in this case we are talking about "cheating", i think when you are an athelete you assume the danger of the sport and its injuries, thats part of the game. Yesterday Jermey Shockey of the Giants broke his leg and most likely that will ruin the Giants chance in the playoffs, but thats the game, there shouldnt be a miracle drug that you give him that makes him come back next week and be better than everyone. Life and sports are too different things, if Jeremy wants to take something that heals him by next week, let him, but also tell him you cant play the sport again because its not fair to anyone else.

lastdecember said:

I don't see why its cheating other than its illegal and some abide by the rules and others don't. But if it wasn't illegal then it wouldn't be cheating, it would be choice.

horatio said:

but it is illegal, so it is cheating. It makes the playing field uneven. There are rules, like men can't compete in womens' sports, for example. Maybe if Tiger Woods couple play in the LPGA he might achieve even more for his legacy, but it wouldn't necessarily be fair to Annika Whasername Sorenstam.

But your point that maybe it should be legal is a valid argument.

NDRU said:

the thing is if you legalize it where does it stop in sports? i mean alot of these guys were going to sites on the internet instead of team doctors, so they knew they were getting around the "sysytem" and doing something illegal, the point is what will be done now? To me you cannot give validity to anyones acheivements through this whole era of baseball, it may be harsh but you almost have to throw away the numbers, or at least give them that famous *. Lets remember that the * was applied to roger maris who hit 61 homeruns beating Babe Ruths 60, but the babe did it in 154 games and Maris took 162 so they tossed that * on him, could you imagine the riot today if that * was applied to a player because he hit more homeruns but the parks were smaller so they didnt count them all as a homeruns because Babe hit his at Yankee stadium and it was a bigger park. The game already has tons of variables thrown in like that, smaller stadiums, night games, relief pitching etc..those are honest variables, bionic arms arent.

lastdecember said:

Well, I personally don't think they should be legal, but it's a valid argument. And I think an * is okay, since like you say there are already a million variables.

What's done is done, what are you going to do, negate world series victories of teams that had players who used steroids?

They're talking about taking the gold medals away from Marion Jones' teammates in the relay. I understand it (and maybe another team deserves a gold) but why should they be punished? I kind of think we should worry about the present & future, let past mistakes be.

just give them an asterick!

NDRU said:

yeah thats ture whats done is done, but like you said the * i think would make alot of the past "legit" players at least feel better and it would show the fans of baseball that some sort of respect is paid to the guys who did it the right way. I think no matter who the guy turns out to be that used, whether its a top star or a guy riding a bench a * goes next to everything he did, and the reason being *"used illegal substance, so results are in question". As far as the HOF for the "stars" that did it, i think morally its a no go for any guy that used it, if Rose cant get in for his crime and Dave Kingman cant get in despite hitting 445 homeruns just because he played on shitty teams at the time and wasnt a "marquee" player, than you cant allow others who got to their place and alot of what they did might have been on the up and up.