IceNine said:

To AARON: Thanks for your reply and attempt to answer some of these question. but your problem is that like some of your fellow goverment supporters you have looked at my questions as purely rethorical. They are not. I do not believe that Bush has ordered the attacks. I simply dont believe the offical version. I do not have answers for these questions, so dont act as I do. I am simply curious, and some questions have been answered on this thread. but only very few.
the way you explain 9/11, just like KingSausage, its just a chain of misunderstandings, miscommunication, coincidences. on another thread I have tried to explain why I dont BELIEVE that, what speaks against that. But I have not suggested WHO is actually behind it, and all of you guys are implying it was Bush himself, or the FBI. I have never said that. so please go and READ what I write instead of projecting your wishthinking on my statements.
thanks anyway and

excuse me mr soulpower sir..but WHAT ABOUT THE DUCKS??! you seem to be annoyed at people for not directly answering your questions..but still you manage to avoid this important subject.. like i was saying before..unless you present ALL the facts, people won't take you seriously sir.. now may i suggest that you address the ducky issue IMMEDIATELY before we go any further..that way we can have an open debate with all relevent information before us..

soulpower said:

if they aren't rhetorical, then you need to give your own answers to make your points.



actually, by your phrasing of the questions, you DO act as if you do have the answers already.



that's pretty much how all of life works, when you get down to it, isn't it?




I'm not projecting anything. You've made your intentions clear repeatedly over the last few months.

Soulpower said. this is bullshit, and you know it. I have never considered myself brilliant.


at least we can all agree on one thing

soulpower said:

I never tried to make the questioner look funny; I properly attacked your questions, NOT you. I have a great amount of respect for you, Soulpower. I've enjoyed your posts in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

However, I do not have to TRY to make your questions look funny. They're already funny. About as funny as questions get. There is a damn good reason that such nonsensical "theories" and "probing questions" aren't given any credence in true academic journals or scholarly circles -- they have as much validity as Indiana Jones movies do for archaeologists. Go pick up a copy of Foreign Affairs or Foreign Policy. You won't see any bullshit conspiracy theories in there at all.

Try bringing such intellectually retarded questions up in front of REAL political scientists or international analysts. You'll get your ass laughed off the edge of the world. It's a REAL bold move to bring up such "revolutionary" theories to a pack of idiots on a fucking PRINCE web site!! Ha!

You are wrong to boil all of my points down to some lazy excuse of "bad communication" and "coincidence." Many of the things you ridiculously rely upon as "evidence" ARE pure coincidence. If you don't believe in any coincidences, you may as well worship the sun or try to analyze 9/11 through tarot cards for fuck sake!!! There are coincidences here. If you put enough of them together in a half-assed "Number One Through Fifty-Five" fashion, you may eventually persuade a few morons to believe you. Keep up the good work, and hopefully you'll conquer those evil windmills someday.

There is bad communication involved, and then some. Magazines and journals have been talking for YEARS about how weak the US intelligence community truly us. Just look at how few language experts the FBI and the CIA have. It's pathetic. It makes me laugh to the point of vomiting out my colon that somebody could think the US could pull off such a conspiracy. Or any group for that matter. It involves too many people. Too much trust. Too much power. A mentally-challenged tree sloth could possess the reasoning skills necessary to see how unrealistic any conspiracies about 9/11 are.

Don't trust the "official version?" Quit being so close-minded. The "official version" has been largely torn out of the Bush administration's feeble asshole...they were trying to hide their faults for quite some time, especially as far as the intelligence community's shortcomings are concerned. This facts and the ongoing investigation are being pieced together by members of the press and the US Congress, etc. who are just as unfriendly towards the Bush administration as I am. There's no fucking conspiracy.

Soulpower, don't underestimate the power of fauly communication and ultra-dense bureaucracy. When you add to those ingredients the fact that Bush and his cronies are a bunch of idiots still stuck in the Cold War and its inherent rules of international conduct, it is clear to see how something like 9/11 could happen. There's enough human short-sightedness and stupidity to explain these events; we don't need conspiracy theories and other such bullshit.

I recall you also once expressing a great deal of faith in the pathetic theories that FDR planned and desired the attacks on Pearl Harbor. Once again, let me point out that no credible historians or political scientists give theories like that the time of day. Sure, some wackos may publish trashy "expose" books about that shit...but you'll never find anyone with actual credentials and the respect of their peers who would promote or buy into such ludicrous horseshit. Sure, you point out the moon landings as supposed "proof" that the US is powerful enough to accomplish such things...nonsense. Our space program is a joke. You're guilty of letting your overestimations of American power could your vision. Clean your lenses, my friend. The answers here lie in the fact that the US is led by a team of dipshits...not that some unseen, lethal force is moving their pawns around the board.

If you would like to discuss hilarious international conspiracy scenarios like this, be my guest. While you're at it, please enlighten us with proof that UFOs are real, Santa Claus really did leave me an A.L.F. doll that one year, the Tooth Fairy has ultra-quiet shoes, "men in black" planned the Confederate bombing of Fort Sumter, Jonah lived in a fucking whale, and the Illuminati provided the script for all of Pauly Shore's feature films...In the meantime, I'll be over here discussing the conditions of world events as they actually exist...

SoulPower...You dont like me? You were suppose to get back to me after some research...(Andrew & Langley AFB) and my response about IceNine & Pentagon...Hey just come straight out and tell me you do not wish to converse with me anymore and I will disregard YOU period! But if no response...Makes me feel you have NO ANSWERS! Which as I said would be a shame considering you're job is to INVESTIVATE & REPORT! (ian..let him answer this one for himself)

OCEANA said:

I havent forgotten about you, OCEANA. But I have a job, and my boss will start getting mad if I tell him I have to investigate something for Oceana. I will, but give me some time. Its busy, thats why my answers today are kept short.

AaronForever said:

Did I? so what are my attentions? to destroy the governmental system of the US? Well, take it from me what my intentions are: to ask questions. to bring somelight to things which are still hidden in the darkness. if you prefer to remain in the darkness, thats your choice bro. but dont dis somebody who wants to know more than you need to know. as I said before, I dont have the answers to all those questions. otherwhiles I would have posted them here. your idea that I already have made up my mind is false and your problem, not mine. I'm trying to get some answers here.

KingSausage said:

Thanx for you long reply brother KS. however, I disagree. The questions I was asking are maybe stupid enough not to be asked in the US media, but they are being debated in all european and asian newspapers. debated by journalists, artists, politicians of all political camps, because obviously they are being taking seriously enough to be considered credible.
so there must be something wrong with the world media, and the US media must be righteous and profsessional to not discuss those topics. just like pearl harbour. In european history books the truth about pearl harbour (which you still call a big conspiracy) is already being taught. 9/11 is being discussed different over here.
at least I am living in a country where journalists who are daring to ask those questions are not being censored. where writers questioning your president are not being fired. where criticizm is not being considered "anti-american" and "anti-fatherland".
so take your pick which media you prefer. like I said before: my info does not come from one wild conspiracy book. it comes from the general discussion in europe and asia.

soulpower said:

So how about we start picking on Germany's foreign policy....and see how you like it





[Snip. That wasn't a damning indictment of German foreign policy, that was a flame. I know a flame when I see one . Ian]

[This message was edited Tue Oct 22 3:08:06 PDT 2002 by MostBeautifulGrlNTheWorld]

Intesesting (long) article on conspiracy theories and theorists here: http://thunderbay.indymed...06/669.php

MostBeautifulGrlNTheWorld said:

I was refering to the article being rubbish...atleast my intentions were that...hmmm where did I go wrong with that one.

soulpower said:

That made me laugh out loud!

soulpower said:

"You have a job and your boss will get mad if you tell him you have to INVESTIGATE something for OCEANA"? ...Now this is not even funny...SoulPower for once I find you CUTE ......I lived at ANDREWS AFB and I lived at LANGLEY AFB at one time so I know what these bases are used for...Andrew AFB is our Presidents base and the home of Air Force One and this base is also where other country leaders fly in and out of, and you know, like some of our big "conspiracy leaders" (congressmen, and Senators and so on)...Langley AFB is an AIR COMBAT COMMAND base..FIGHTERs everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE ! Langley AFB is also an Intelligence base...Kind of like the Pentagon this base has fighters on standby 24/7. I seen the Pentagon with my own eyes and so did everybody else at least on the news or in the papers. SoulPower..give your time to KingSausage and IceNine or Aaron they can handle you better than I. ...ROFLMAO !!

soulpower said:

And how does your boss feel about you spending your time thinking up 55 nonsensical conspiracy-driven questions?

Oh, and I've given you time to come up with that list of atrocities you say Bush has committed, but you still haven't produced anything, a month later.

Don't hold your breath, oceana.

MrBliss said:

The whole thing is a plot by the Mormons! See, they are in league with Richard Nixon, who faked his death. He leads a secret government cloning experiment, which used Arabic people as guinea pigs. All the arabs have micro-chips implanted in their necks, which make them slaves to Tricky Dick. At the behest of Mormon Central Command, Dick gave the word for his arab-clones to attack! This was done by playing the Paul Simon song "Call Me Al", which triggered the post-hypnotic suggestion for the Al-Queda to go into action. This is all part of Tricky-Dick's secret plot to take over the world, and establish a New Mormon World Order!

Why is no one asking why all the copies of Paul Simon's Graceland album sold out of record stores in the New York area, just prior to the attacks? Why is no one pointing out that we really don't know who is buried in Richard Nixon's grave? Why is no one noticing the similarity between George W Bush and Beaker from the Muppett show? How come no one is pointing out that Pauly SHore has been mysteriously absent during all of this? These are the questions that the people of the world need to ask!!!

Conspiracy theories are used to keep people guessing at the facts. There are many people investigating the facts currently and when it's all said and done people will understand that King Sausage hit the nail on the head. (we're not worthy KS)

Where was Pauly Shore during all this? Paul Simons Graceland was sold out? Doesn't that just answer so many unanswered questions?

Glad to see that someone here realizes the truth! Beware of the Big Dick!! Pauly Shore will lead us to Armegeddon! Armegeddon outta here!

IMO, the questions all lead to a pattern. Is there a pattern that leads one to believe there is a conspiracy? Sometimes we miss the truth because we only focus on individual facts but the real answer lie in a pattern of events. We should focus on the real reason the middle east is so chaotic - he who controls the oil controls the world. The largest and oldest oil company in American "Amoco" is now owned by British Petroleum. Watch as the familiar red, white and blue symbolized by Amoco turns green and gold the new colors of BP.

Ok, so what about question 53? I saw the Pentagon's outside wall in shambles but I did not see plane wreckage.

Was there a plane? Or just an explosion? Can anyone find pictures?

My curiousity has been piqued!

Read this short article, folks.

From http://www.alternet.org/s...ryID=12536
(Which is a GREAT site!!!)

---

"When 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Go Bad

By David Corn, AlterNet
March 1, 2002

Please stop sending me those emails. You know who are. And you know what emails I mean ... Okay, I'll spell it out -- those forwarded emails suggesting, or flat-out stating, the CIA and the U.S. government were somehow involved in the horrific September 11 attacks.

There are emails about a fellow imprisoned in Canada who claims to be a former U.S. intelligence office and who supposedly passed advance warning of the attack to jail guards in mid-August. There are emails, citing an Italian newspaper, reporting that last July Osama bin Laden was treated for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and met with a CIA official. There are the emails, referring to a book published in France, that note the attacks came a month after Bush Administration officials, who were negotiating an oil deal with the Taliban, told the Afghans "either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs."

Get the hint? Washington either did nothing to stop the September 11 attacks or plotted the assaults so a justifiable war could then be waged against Afghanistan to benefit Big Oil.

One email I keep receiving is a timeline of so-called suspicious events that "establishes CIA foreknowledge of [the September 11 attacks] and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution."

I won't argue that the U.S. government does not engage in brutal, murderous skulduggery from time to time. But the notion that the U.S. government either detected the attacks but allowed them to occur, or, worse, conspired to kill thousands of Americans to launch a war-for-oil in Afghanistan is absurd. Still, each week emails passing on such tripe arrive. This crap is probably not worth a rational rebuttal, but I'm irritated enough to try.

It's a mug's game to refute individual pieces of conspiracy theories. Who can really know if anything that bizarre happened at a Dubai hospital? As for the man jailed in Canada, he was being held on a credit card fraud charge, and the only source for the story about his warning was his own word. The judge in his case said, "There is no independent evidence to support his colossal allegations." But a conspiracy-monges can reply, wouldn't you expect the government and its friends in Canada to say that?

So let's start with a broad question: would U.S. officials be capable of such a foul deed? Capable -- as in able to pull it off and willing to do so. Simply put, the spies and special agents are not good enough, evil enough, or gutsy enough to mount this operation. That conclusion is based partly on, dare I say it, common sense, but also on years spent covering national security matters. (For a book I wrote on the CIA, I interviewed over 100 CIA officials and employees.)

Not good enough: Such a plot -- to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes and make it appear as if it all was done by another party -- is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme. They would have to work together, and trust one another not to blow their part or reveal the conspiracy. They would hail from an assortment of agencies (CIA, FBI, INS, Customs, State, FAA, NTSB, DOD, etc.).

Yet anyone with the most basic understanding of how government functions (or does not function) realizes that the various bureaucracies of Washington -- particularly those of the national security "community" -- do not work well together. Even covering up advance knowledge would require an extensive plot. If there truly had been intelligence reports predicting the 9/11 attacks, these reports would have circulated through intelligence and policymaking circles before the folks at the top decided to smother them for geopolitical gain. That would make for a unwieldy conspiracy of silence. And in either scenario -- planning the attacks or permitting them to occur -- everyone who participated in the conspiracy would have to be freakin' sure that all the other plotters would stay quiet.

Not evil enough. This is as foul as it gets -- to kill thousands of Americans, including Pentagon employees, to help out oil companies. (The sacrificial lambs could have included White House staff or members of Congress, had the fourth plane not crashed in Pennsylvania.) This is a Hollywood-level of dastardliness, James Bond (or Dr. Evil) material.

Are there enough people of such a bent in all those agencies? That's doubtful. CIA officers and American officials have been evildoers. They have supported death squads and made use of drug dealers overseas. They have assisted torturers, disseminated assassination manuals, sold weapons to terrorist-friendly governments, undermined democratically-elected governments, and aided dictators who murder and maim. They have covered up reports of massacres and human rights abuses. They have plotted to kill foreign leaders.

These were horrendous activities, but, in most instances, the perps justified these deeds with Cold War imperatives (perverted as they were). And to make the justification easier, the victims were people overseas. Justifying the murder of thousands of Americans to help ExxonMobil would require U.S. officials to engage in a different kind of detachment and an even more profound break with decency and moral norms.

I recall interviewing one former CIA official who helped manage a division that ran the sort of actions listed above, and I asked him whether the CIA had considered "permanently neutralizing" a former CIA man who had revealed operations and the identities of CIA officers. Kill an American citizen? he replied, as if I were crazy to ask. No, no, he added, we could never do that. Yes, in the spy-world some things were beyond the pale. And, he explained, it would be far too perilous, for getting caught in that type of nasty business could threaten your career. Which brings us to...

Not gutsy enough. Think of the danger -- the potential danger to the plotters. What if their plan were uncovered before or, worse, after the fact? Who's going to risk being associated with the most infamous crime in U.S. history? At the start of such a conspiracy, no one could be certain it would work and remain a secret. CIA people -- and those in other government agencies -- do care about their careers.

Would George W. Bush take the chance of being branded the most evil president of all time by countenancing such wrongdoing? Oil may be in his blood, but would he place the oil industry's interests ahead of his own? (He sure said sayonara to Kenneth Lay and Enron pretty darn fast.) And Bush and everyone else in government know that plans leak. Disinformation specialists at the Pentagon could not keep their office off the front page of The New York Times. In the aftermath of September 11, there has been much handwringing over the supposed fact that U.S. intelligence has been too risk-averse. But, thankfully, some inhibitions -- P.R. concerns, career concerns -- do provide brakes on the spy-crowd.

By now, you're probably wondering why I have bothered to go through this exercise. Aren't these conspiracy theories too silly to address? That should be the case. But, sadly, they do attract people.

A fellow named Michael Ruppert, who compiled that timeline mentioned above, has drawn large crowds to his lectures. He has offered $1000 to anyone who can "disprove the authenticity of any of his source material." Well, his timeline includes that Canadian prisoner's claim and cites the Toronto Star as the source. But Ruppert fails to note that the Star did not confirm the man's account, that the paper reported some observers "wonder if it isn't just the ravings of a lunatic," and that the Star subsequently reported the judge said the tale had "no air of reality." Does that disprove anything? Not 100 percent. There's still a chance that man is telling the truth, right? So I'm not expecting a check.

Conspiracy theories may seem more nuisance than problem. But they do compete with reality for attention. There is plenty to be outraged over without becoming obsessed with X Files-like nonsense. Examples? There's the intelligence services's failure to protect Americans and the lack of criticism of the CIA from elected officials. Or, General Tommy Franks, the commander of military operations in Afghanistan, declaring the commando mis-assault at Hazar Qadam, which resulted in the deaths of fifteen to twenty local Afghans loyal to the pro-U.S. government, was not an intelligence failure. (How can U.S. Special Forces fire at targets they wrongly believe to be Taliban or al Qaeda fighters, end up killing people they did not intend to kill, and the operation not be considered an intelligence failure?) More outrage material? A few months ago, forensic researchers found the remains of people tortured and killed at a base the CIA had established in the 1980s as a training center for the contras. The U.S. ambassador to Honduras at the time is now the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Negroponte.

There are always national security misdeeds to be mad about. They may not be as cinematic in nature as a plot in which shady, unidentified U.S. officials scheme to blow up the World Trade Towers to gain control of an oil pipeline in Central Asia. But dozens of dead Hondurans or twenty or so Afghans wrongly killed ought to provoke anger and protest. In fact, out-there conspiracy theorizing serves the interests of the powers-that-be by making their real transgressions seem tame in comparison. (What's a few dead in Central America, compared to thousands in New York City? Why worry about Negroponte, when unidentified U.S. officials are slaughtering American civilians to trigger war?)

Perhaps there's a Pentagon or CIA office that churns out this material. Its mission: distract people from the real wrongdoing. Now there's a conspiracy theory worth exploring. Doesn't it make sense? Doesn't it all fit together? I challenge anyone to disprove it.

David Corn is the Washington editor of The Nation."

---

Isn't that shit great!!??! I love AlterNet...

Excellent post, King Sausage. You sure know your shit!


Why, thanks, Me!

Boy, won't we all be embarrassed when we learn that soulpower was right?

KS - Great post, with references, imagine that?

This is a point that conspiracy theorists miss completely. References are always a nameless source of some kind.

This guy not only breaks it down with intelligence but also has experience in Washington with a first hand look at how it operates.

Soulpower - Conspiracy statements like your list mean nothing without a reference. As a journalist you knew that right?
[This message was edited Tue Oct 22 19:04:04 PDT 2002 by JamesMarshallHendrix]