IceNine said:

Agree 100% ! I have to to this statement!

IceNine said:

It would be more horseshit if he was speaking out of a French mouth. France got their tanker bombed by terrorists and they will still hate US and coddle them.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 14:34:58 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

THREAD LOCKED...ian,P.org MOD! ...I DONT THINK SO ..ONLY MINE...SoulPower and Ian are buddies in their war against America...Two man platoon ...

all I'm saying is back your shit up with facts.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

The only problem is that he CAN NEVER produce any hard evidence for any of this goddamned stupid fucking speculative bullshit.

IceNine said:

And that is EXACTLY why I stated earlier that I never trust the content of his posts because he rarely has any facts to back up his statements.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 15:25:03 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Preach it, my friend...

The questions are legitimate IF the info is sound. Unfortunately, I do not know enough about the various events. What I do know is that the Bush administration was very secretive about what warnings it received and the pre-9/11 Bin Laden intelligence. Remember when several people were called unpatriotic for even wanting to ask them? That's not very healthy in a democracy, especially not when the leader is presenting himself as fighting for all that is Good against the forces of all that is evil. The moral superiority airs that Bush puts on are a major turn-off. It is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that a great amount of hypocrisy is present. The way recent information about Saddam Hussein's arsenal have been handled, it is very clear that this administration is willing to distort and exagerate. It's time the press starts asking tougher questions and that everyone stops feeling guilty, unpatriotic or anti-american for seeking some real answers. Soulpower's line of questioning is obviously hostile, but it is an healthy exercise in a media environment that feeds you prepackaged information and junk food news round the clock.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 15:56:58 PDT 2002 by Aerogram]

Aerogram said:

My point is that this is no different than ALL government action everywhere...

You can run down hundreds of pointless questions about every event in world history. George Bush is no different than 99.9% of all politicians in the world... and nobody could be stupid enough to think that he could be single-handedly responsible for this shit.

Aerogram said:

I agree Aero, however this post is presented in such a way that someone who is not aware of Soulpowers relentless anti-american agenda might take his questions as bulleted points of fact.

I am very unhappy that the Bush administration is running this country. They have acted with such beligerence. If you recall Bush was making all these plans for War against Iraq WITHOUT any debate or authorization from the other branches of government and certainly without the authorization of the people. The only reason they were willing to get the backing of Congress and go through the UN is because people just weren't having it.

They have been very secretive about most EVERYTHING they touch. When this whole Enron situtation started, the administration would not give names of those that Cheney met with to form the energy policy. Turns out that Enron executives are pleading guilty to manipulating the market to bleed California dry. Chances are that Cheney and their team were aware that such tactics were legal and would be used. Why else would they refuse to step in when our Governor asked them to stop these energy giants from raping our state? They only stepped into the scene when the whole nation became affected due to the collaps of Enron.

In my opinion this administration is so very dangerous. If given the chance, Bush will appoint ultra conservative judges that could see the challenge to a woman's right to choose.

There is so much negativity coming out of this administration, so much damage and I for one am only backing our President because we have been attacked. If not for that, he wouldn't have one ounce of my support.

Soulpower, think again next time you paint me as a Bush supporter.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 16:29:50 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

IceNine said:

He is the most powerful politician in the world and the leader of the only real superpower left. That makes him stand apart in more than one way. He has presented hmself in a certain light that is so damn self-righteous.. the whole "Trust me and be patriotic" thing he and Cheney have had since 9/11, I'm very sick of it, sicker than I am of conspiracy theoriticians. I reckon they are annooying, but since the US media by and large is doing such a terrible job at questioning the administration, I'm not surprised questions have sprouted. That is what happens when so many things are kept secret by design and the answers are given grudgingly if at all, preferably with a comment about your patriotism or anti-americanism.

I believe there was certainly an effort to hide how much the adminstration knew prior to the attacks. I would like to know more about Soulpower's sources, and I would also want him to acknowledge a few characteristics of intelligence information. One question I have is :

Of all the intelligence information Bush received between being installed into office ( ) and 9/11, what percentage panned out into an actual event?

My guess is... far less than 1 %. That is an important fact to consider when considering if someone actually ignored information or simply had -- paradoxically -- so much information it had little of it in terms of actual relevance... at the time..
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 16:43:24 PDT 2002 by Aerogram]

Aerogram said:

Believe me, you aren't the only one who's sick of it. As an American it makes me want to wretch. Republicans as a whole are the biggest bunch of phoney balony fakes, I can't stand the party. In New Jersey we recently had a Democratic incumbent decide not to run and request that someone else run in his place. The Republicans challenged this as it wound it's way to the state supreme court. The state supreme court decided to allow another candidate to run and the Republicans were screaming that a court shouldn't be able to circumvent the law and allow the people to have both Democratic and Republican candidates on the ballot YET THEY WERE COMPLETELY FINE WITH ALLOWING THE US SUPREME COURT DECIDE THE OUTCOME OF THE 2000 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, which in all reality was nothing more than a bloodless coup.

If the Republicans weren't so busy with President Clinton's penis, perhaps more attention would have been focused on Al Qaeda and terrorism in general and we wouldn't have had this amazing tragedy to deal with. Remember, Clinton was actively pursuing Al Qaeda by bombing a chemical plant in Sudan (which US Intelligence says they found traces of the precursor to chemical weapons at the location) and the Republicans accused him of simply "wagging the dog" because of the Monica Lewinski scandal. Yet when Democrats ask for legitimate proof of why the president wants UNPRECEDENTED power in his approach on Iraq, they are accused of being unpatriotic. Talk about wagging the goddamned dog.

I hate this administration so much and cannot wait to cast my vote in 2004 to get them the hell out of office.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 17:01:00 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

In my estimation, there is absolutely no difference between the Republicans and the Democrats... they both get their money from the same corporations and they are both equally fucked up and corrupt.

Bill Clinton was absolutely no better than Bush.

The government is very fucked and BOTH the Democrats and Republicans are the problem.

IceNine said:

... Preach it brother Ice !

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Great post.

Soulpower is on a mission obviously, but I believe he is sincere. Too slanted, yes, but again, think about how slanted american journalists can be. I used to be slightly annoyed by radicals, but now I understand many of these guys are often at the forefront of you and me are too comfortable and just plain indifferent to examine. That being said, the more slanted the information I read, the less I trust it, no matter its provenance. Maybe the expression we are looking for is "balanced coverage"? I think so... A little give and take can go a long way in making investigative reporting more effective. Ask the tough questions... yes, but also acknowledge some built-in issues that certainly lessen the appearance of conspiracy.

I have edited my post (4 above), see comment about wagging the dog!!!

IceNine said:

Agreed, but the Republicans are the biggest hypocrites of all.

IceNine said:

And I suppose libertine librarians would be better?

IceNine said:

Yeah the two-party system is something I'd imagine a lot of Americans would like to see changed. As you say, there really is very little difference between the two parties really (and no one really votes for independents).

I'm a big fan of proportional representation, lots of different parties and independents, and coalition governments. It just seems to work that bit better.

On a related note, I read that writeup by Michael Moore in "Stupid White Men" about the Gore campaign and how Bush stole the presidential election etc... it's a great read!

EDIT: wow I do say "really" a lot in my posts don't I? I'll really have to do something about that. There I go again!
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 17:27:40 PDT 2002 by ian]

ian said:

Unfortunately, not enough people back the libertarian/other parties and those votes end up giving one candidate more of an advantage by taking away votes.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

It does suck...

BUT...

I am a fully paid member of the Libertarian Party!

VOTE LIBERTARIAN

1. Is it really a coincidence that the headquarters of the
9/11 terrorists was Florida, the center of hidden CIA
activity since the 1950s (from "Bay of the pigs"to "Iran- Contra-Affair")?

There are millions of people in Florida. Is it coincidence that my ancient grandparents want to move there? Does that make them graduates of the School of the Americas or something? Because some of the terrorists formed a cell in Hamburg, does that mean the German government was in on it too? Be careful not to confuse correlation with causation here...and coincidences happen every day, especially ones that are strecthed out to the degree on display here.



2. Why did President Bush jr order to halt the investigations on the Bin Laden clan in January 2001?

Because his entire administration, including himself, are a bunch of foolish Cold Warriors, determined that only the actions of states matter...that small groups of fundamentalist militants could never touch the "almighty" US...that we needed a missile defense shield to protect us against Russia & China (look up Bush's campaign speeches!) No need for a conspiracy to answer this one.


3. Where did Navy-agent Delmart Vreeland get his information on possible terror attacks on the Pentagon and New York?

Who the fuck cares? I got mine from an old issue of Time back in 1998. Osama bin Laden stated back then that he wanted to destroy the US...and it was widely acknowledged that NYC and D.C. were primary targets.


5. Why was the information provided by the FBI office Phoenix, Az from Juli 2001 disregarded?

Because we have incompetent intelligence agencies that STILL won't admit to their failings and lack of insight. It was buried under a pile of false info and bureaucracy.


7. Why didnt the CIA react to the precise warnings issued by the israelian secret service Mossad?

See above.


8. What information did President Bush really get in the CIA briefing on August 6th 2001 about the threat of Al Quaida members hijacking planes?

Does it matter what info he got? This fucker can't even read a book without pictures! You could tell him that bin Laden was standing two inches away with an AK aimed at his face, and he still wouldn't get it! And Cheney would still be sweating himself to sleep at night dreading the "evil" Russians.


9. Why did the CIA not react to the warnings of August Hanning, head of the german secret servive BND, who knew that "terrorists from the middle east planned to hijack planes"?

Because they are constantly getting such notices, and fell prey to the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" syndrome.


10. What was the purpose of the meeting between Christina Rocca of the state department of foreign affairs and Taliban-embassador Salam Zaeef in August 2001?

Probably to discuss the huge allotment of money awarded to the Taliban for their "efforts" to curb illegal drugs.


13. Who decided to offer O'Neill the job as the security advisor for the World Trade Center?

I'm going to take a wild fucking guess and say the human resources administrator for his division.


15. What was the purpose of the arrival of the two US battleship formations in the persian gulf right before September 11th?

16. What was the purpose of operation "Swift Ford" in the persian gulf right before September 11th - the largest british troops movement (23 000) since the Falkland war?

Coincidences DO happen, you know. The world isn't populated by boogiemen.


24. When was Bush truly informed about the hit of the first plane into the WTC?

25. Why did he later claim to have watched the first hit live on TV when it was never broadcasted live?

Why did he use the term "hispanically" in a speech? Because he's an idiot! Open your eyes.


26. Why did Bush, being informed about the second hit in a Florida classroom, remain calm instead of meeting with his security advisers right away?

Because, as stupid as he is, he behaved rationally, just as many people would. It is his job. You're REALLY stretching here.


27. Why did Bush and his staff at the time not know what was already known to FAA and NORAD: that the planes have been hijacked?

Bad communication does NOT mean conspiracy.


28. Why was the NYFD from the very beginning aware that the crashes were the results of terrorist actions, while the President still acted like it was just an accident?

He didn't. He knew they were attacked after the second plane hit. As did the NYC authorities. As did I, watching the fucking news. And if Bush HAD thought it was still an accident, it's probably because he can't spell the word CAT.


29. Can Nicholas Scopetta, head of the NYFD, explain why there were no people in the subway underneath the WTC?

Are there people in every square inch of every part of a subway at any time? This theory is doing more stretching than a goddamn Richard Simmons workout tape!


30. What is true about various media reports which claim that the hijackers have also bought return tickets for the days after September 11th?

Well, such actions would sure look good and keep them under cover without revealing their plot had things not worked out, right? These bastards were smart.

31. Why did the hijackers demand from the passengers to call their relatives?

Terror. This is possibly the stupidest question on here. Those phone calls tore peoples' hearts when they heard about it...missions accomplished. Terror. And it also distracts the passengers pretty well, doesn't it?

32. Why was not a single "innocent" moslem aboard the hijacked planes?

Small number of passengers on board. There were muslims in the WTC. Or do they not apply to your theory for some reason?


33. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and didnt take it with him on the plane?

He obviously didn't NEED it, did he? Plus, it works with their cover, should they be caught.


34. Why did Atta put a uniform, a testament and a video on how to fly planes in his bag, if he knew he was on a suicide mission?

Once aagin, they were smart enough to think of a reserve plan should they be caught and live to do this some other day...

35. Why did Atta leave his driving license in the rental car?

Why did I leave my wallet in my fiancee's car the other day?


37. After this call, why was their no airspace surveillance at the White House?

They were slow in scrambling up planes. Bad communication.


38. Who gave orders to evacuate the White House at 9.45?

Somebody in charge that was doing their job well.


39. Where was Donald Rumsfeld until he appeared at the Pentagon at 3.30 pm?

Hidden. Security is important.

40. How can the strange route of Flight 93 be explained before it crashed in Pennsylvania?

Ugh...too inane to even address.


41. Many people still dont believe that Flight 93 was shot down. But can those people explain why parts of that plane were spread over a space of miles?

Me. That theory is bullshit. They admitted that they wanted to shoot it down, but were slow. Real life is NOT The X-Files.


43. How could Rumsfeld have possibly known at 5.30 pm that the orginal targets of Flight 93 was the White House?

Everyone was speculating that day. I told my friends that pland was probably heading towards the White House, as I'm sure many people did. So what?


46. Why did Bush say a week later, he had tried to shoot down that plane?

Wait...I thought they DID shoot it down! Oh, I see...he's LYING! It's all falling into place. I'll just have Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny type up a summary of this then...


47. How could the identities of the terrorists been clear after only one day, if the CIA had no information as they claim?

Easy...Run up a list of passengers, do some background checks...see who knew who else...etc.


48. How did they find their cars so quickly?

Stupid question. They used fucking computers.


49. Where did the photographs of the 19 hijackers come from?

A camera.

50. Why did they not find most of the "Black Boxes"?

Black boxes are NOT invincible...


55. Why has none of those questions above ever been asked in a special committee investigating the events of 9/11?

Because these committees are not being overseen by chimps and fat kids in UFO t-shirts.

IceNine said:

So that's what they call themselves now? Nifty contraction.

Thank you Your Sausageness!! It doesn't take a lot to explain how and why Soulpowers incessant theories don't hold a lot of weight.

Soulpower.....Are any of these responses legitimate in your eyes?
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 18:10:49 PDT 2002 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

KingSausage said:

Sauseetch!!!

I especially like your responses to #13 and to the last one. heh heh








ok I edited the list out, lest WilliethPimp accuse me of wasting cyberspace.
[This message was edited Thu Oct 17 18:14:09 PDT 2002 by 2the9s]

2the9s said:

That was a good response, KS.
However may you can riddle me this - why the f*ck am I up reading this nonsense at 3am when I have work in the morning? Eh?

KingSausage said:

Sausage

ian said:

My theory is that some jobs are only bearable when you go to work slightly groggy.