Compare Prince's Avalanche with Stevie Wonder's Black Man.

Spot the differences...

POSITIVITY, should it stay or should it go?

I wonder...

I'll give you the lyrics...

First man to die
For the flag we now hold high (Crispus Attucks)
Was a black man

The ground were we stand
With the flag held in our hand
Was first the redman's

Guide of a ship
On the first Columbus trip (Pedro Alonzo Nino)
Was a brown man

The railroads for trains
Came on tracking that was laid
By the yellow man

We pledge allegiance
All our lives
To the magic colors
Red, blue and white
But we all must be given
The liberty that we defend
For with justice not for all men
History will repeat again
It's time we learned
This World Was Made For All Men

Heart surgery
Was first done successfully
By a black man (Dr Daniel Hale Williams)

Friendly man who died
But helped the pilgrims to survive (Squanto)
Was a redman

Farm workers rights
Were lifted to new heights (Caesar Chavez)
By a brown man

Incandescent light
Was invented to give sight (Thomas Edison)
By the white man

We pledge allegiance
All our lives
To the magic colors
Red, blue and white
But we all must be given
The liberty that we defend
For with justice not for all men
History will repeat again
It's time we learned
This World Was Made For All Men

Here me out...

Now I know the birthday of a nation
Is a time when a country celebrates
But as your hand touches your heart
Remember we all played a part in America
To help that banner wave

First clock to be made
In America was created
By a black man (Benjamin Banneker)

Scout who used no chart
Helped lead Lewis and Clark
Was a redman (Sacagawea)

Use of martial arts
In our country got its start
By a yellow man

And the leader with a pen
Signed his name to free all men
Was a white man (Abraham Lincoln)

We pledge allegiance
All our lives
To the magic colors
Red, blue and white
But we all must be given
The liberty that we defend
For with justice not for all men
History will repeat again
It's time we learned
This World Was Made For All Men

This world was made for all men
This world was made for all men
This world was made for all men
God saved His world for all men
All people
All babies
All children
All colors
All races
This world's for you
and me
This world
My world
Your world
Everybody's world
This world
Their world
Our world
This world was made for all men

Here me out...

And my point is that it is okay to point out a thing in the past that still shapes tomorrow, but that there are different ways to approach tomorrow.

I'ld pick Stevie anytime...and the POSITIVTY from 1988...

(YES)

I think that Stevie Wonder's approach is better than then heavy-handed bullshit that Prince put out.

What is your definition of heavy handed?

Heavy is no problem, it just that I think the approach differs from the journey he took to get to the point where he is now.
I could understand if it made sense...
He questioned things, that made him the bigger. Now he knows what he is and he becomes intolerant. It makes no sense to me.

Maybe he is happy with where he is. Intolerence is such a strong word. Is he actively stopping you from doing things or sharing his view?

mdiver said:

Here is an example of heavy-handedness:

He was not or never had been in favor
of setting r people free
if it wasn't 4 the 13th Amendment
we woulda been born in slavery
He was not or never had been in favor
of letting us vote so u c...
Abraham Lincoln was a racist who said
"U cannot escape from history"


Stevie Wonder was not pointing fingers and calling people racists, he was sending a message of unity and saying that everyone makes a difference. Prince was trying to be "provocative" by disregarding the importance of Lincoln's actions and calling him a racist.

Do you not agree that Lincoln did good things for the slaves? I don't care if he "loved" the black race or not, that is not the question... did he help the black race in America in any way?

I think that he did.

gooeythehamster said:

Well said, Gooey!

and quite a good way to look at the "Avalanche Controversy" I can't wait to see what happens..

Don't get me wrong.
I just think that freedom works both ways.
If we want it we have to let others have it. The problem occurs when we try and make other people conform to our idea of freedom.

Abe Lincoln...how many centuries back
Racist...rather a new word.

Would the fact that the word racist is 'rather modern' imply that the world viewed things different then? Not right, just different?

Another thing just occured to me. Why do we have such terms and black and white. As far as mankind goes these are TOTALLY irrelavent. We are all people!
Where I live it is a common occurence that white are abused for not being black. So what? Of course it is wrong to abuse any human being for being different but it is all bollocks. We should all treat EVERYONE as equal. Stuff the past and what has gone before. There is nothing we can do about it and we will only ever change the future by changing ourselves and enlightening others.
Peace

mdiver said:

So you agree with Stevie.
This world was made for all man.
And bunny rabbits.

I don't care who said it. It's the truth

gooeythehamster said:

I find it really ignorant when people don't think in a historical perspective when looking at historical figures. The world and societies are constantly changing, when 'judging' a historical icon, you MUST consider them through a lens tinted by the time they lived.

That being said, I think Prince is free to say what he wants however he wants to say it. I just think the methods he uses now are not effective.

Calling Lincoln a racist is basically preaching to the converted. that line will hit home with those who already believe it. But, it won't open the ears or minds of those who don't agree.

gooeythehamster said:

The world was made for kitties, silly hamster!

mdiver said:

Make people aware of it.
Most of it is fear of the unknown.
I think Prince's way is a bit bitter than Stevie's.
You might say Stevie is more naieve.
But I like naieve.
And use it on an unsuspecting world.

BUNNY RABBITS ARE CUTE!
Cuz I do not want to presume and claim this world is for MAN. I think MAN should tone down. But that is another discussion.

endorphin74 said:

Kitties vs Bunnies show down?

gooeythehamster said:

Kitties would kick some Bunny ass! No problemo!

Given the way this thread is going should we even label them Bunnies and Kitties are they not all just animals??

mdiver said:

I like the way you think. Yes, let's.

Endo, you are an animal...
Roar.

mdiver said:

LOL Har har de har har!

Trust me mate you wouldn't like some of the things I think.

gooeythehamster said:

grrr


gooey...get back on topic! don't hijack your own thread! ;D

[This message was edited Wed Oct 16 6:43:20 PDT 2002 by Heavenly]

Trust- now there is a concept. Surely positivity is a state of mind and trust needs to be earnt.

mdiver said:

That is correct. Positivity to me meant looking towards life in a certain way, I love Prince's mucis, but I don't trust it anymore...

gooeythehamster said:

Why not?
What has made you lose trust?
Is it just because you may not agree?
I am interested to know

The thing that makes Prince’s music and lyrics less interesting is that it seems he has reached a destination, as where he used to be a journeyman.

I enjoyed the fact he shared his views with the lot of us and continues to do so. I am happy I could tap into a lot he had to say over the years. He ‘kinda’ lost me with the illogical lyrics to certain songs or the entire storytelling of The Rainbow Children. I hear bitterness between the cracks and a lot of anger, where I used to hear positivity (hence the title of this thread). This is also why I wanted you lot to look at the lyrics of Stevie Wonder’s Black Man, a song I turn to everytime I have heard Avalanche.

I jumped on board because his music combined many influences, musically and morally. Now it seems he starts condemning not only history (Avalanche) but also his own journey that took him where he is now (The Christ name change, no longer cussing).
I still I would rather hear the naughty innuendo of Sexy MF than the rather unintended disrespect of She Want Me 4 Me.

Like I said; I am happy that Prince and I shared many views over the years, he just moved on to some place I cannot and will not follow. I have moved on to other music; through some friends I am drawn into a David Bowie phase and I naturally am drawn to magnificence like Bjork.
So, no harm done, basically.

I do not consider Prince’s music to be a Holy Grail, like some people here. I am grateful that Prince’s music led me to other music. He hipped me to Miles Davis (Miller era), to Mavis Staples>The Staple Singers>Mahalia Jackson. Through his music I expanded my own musical tastes and that was cool.

Cool is a cool word. Cool did not die with Miles Davis.
Jazz is not dead. Rock and roll lives.
Wish it would leave Minneapolis somewhat more.

So, what do you all think?

Do we like the innocent positivity of Mr Wonder's song or the illogical retelling of history as Mr Nelson sees it?