Imago said:

sorry but society by the very nature of the way they act/react/treat us pushes many of us to the point where we feel lying is the only option.

ehuffnsd said:

I guess this is true, but a woman wants to feel that she is what her husband desires, and only she. I think that's why women hate porn so much.

For me, the dishonesty of the marriage was the issue. It was just too much for me to be part of. I REALLY was not easy for me to say goodbye.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

OH I'm not arguing that society doesn't make alot of folks feel like the need to lie. Certainly that happens.


What I'm saying is that the society isn't asking you to lie.. Society is asking you to be straight, cause they think it's a choice. This in turn, places pressure on folks to lie about it.

Imago said:

i understand that about women, however when one is struggling with sexual identity that doesn't cross their mind. do you think someone who honestly doesn't want to be gay is worried if their wife feels desired? it's about them not losing what they have and who they want to be.

ehuffnsd said:

I disagree. I think the kind of love that you share with your spouse should include a sexual attraction. I do not believe that he truly loves her...if he did he would not put her and their child in this position.

ehuffnsd said:

I'm not saying he shouldn't be supported in his future struggle to come out, but his actions are still atrocious in my eyes. That won't ever change. He didn't need to get married and hurt other people. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

shanti0608 said:

that's coming from a straight woman's point of view.

however men don't always think that way.

CarrieMpls said:

you're right we can see he didn't have to, however we aren't in his situation and don't know his side of the story and the reason he did what he did.

CarrieMpls said:

for all we know she could have known all along and thought she could change him or save him. that's common as well.

in that case both went in for the wrong reasons
[Edited 11/28/07 11:55am]

ehuffnsd said:

Well I have had a relationship with a women. I know that I cannot give an opinion from a man's point of view.
I know that men and women are different. I can only speak for myself here. I told my family, friends and went out into public and society with my girlfriend. I was not going to hide my feelings and who I was.

I know...it is different for men....

I just think that ppl should be honest when it comes to something as important as this.

shanti0608 said:

Well, I grew up in a dishonest family.

My mom married my dad, and though she never admitted it (even to this day), I know she did it to get out of a poor sustenance farming lifestyle in Thailand.

My sister and I grew up in the most loveless family I could imagine, and though not particularly abusive, it affect the way I view love, and express it.

She did something that I always thought was very selfish. Then I went to Thailand at the age of 25, and that same year did a 3 month tour (in the military) in Haiti. I can see why she did it now. I'm not saying it wasn't selfish or deceitful. I'm just saying I understand.

ehuffnsd said:

I do.

All his life he dealt with an inferiority complex. He's always been the over-acheiver. His relationship with his dad was awful, and his dad never complimented him. He was always made to feel like a failure by his dad.

He vowed that he would be more successful than his dad, and success to him, given his upbringing was the big house, the big car, the wife and kids, and the picket fence.

All of this he's achieved. I believe he's making at least 20 grand more than me a year now in a city that has a lower cost of living. So he's reached his superficial goals. This means, his embarking on his slippery slope downwards. I know this person well enough to know how it will end. He can persevere more than 5 more years.

Imago said:

Stop with the Semantics Dan! Society might not be asking us to lie but they certainly expect it from us. It really is easy for people to stand in righteous indignation on this issue but some as faggotized as myself TOTALLY LIED about being gay. How on earth could I have ever gotten away with it? I'm gay squared for godsakes But when I was in the church I felt I had no other option because the choices I faced by coming out and admitting it were so absolutely horrifying to me that there was no way I felt I could do it.

Eventually I did and now I truly advocate for people to be honest about their lives and for society to allow us that option but many people in this country are in fucking flip out mode on this issue and it isn't just as easy as asking these men to face their situation with full honesty when the society all around them from their family on down to total strangers aren't willing to give these men any options they can feel safe or satisfied with.

It is so easy for straight people to get angry with this but straight society does not have a coming out process. It's really impossible for people to understand what that is like, even gay friendly straigth folk. They have the most insight into the process but still they've never had to do it themselves and therefore might not understand the depth of the push and pull and how some choices really feel impossible.

shanti0608 said:

lesbians especially femme ones are viewed better in society because men aren't threatened by them and sometime turned on. even butch ones are respected. look at the carears of out lesbians compared to out gay men in the entertainment industry.

gay men have a harder road to travel in acceptence because they threaten the ideal of what it means to be a man.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I've already told you I've fooled around with men!

What more do you want from me!!!!

ehuffnsd said:

I know that is true but I think marrying a women and having a baby with her is compounding the problem.
I am sorry that society does not accept gay men as they should.
I can only be responsible for myself and my actions.
I try to be open minded and accepting of others. I cannot accept ppl outright lying when it hurts another human being.

shanti0608 said:

what about lying to not hurt the other person?

This si why society needs to CHANGE!

Parents need to be more loving and caring and face the facts of everyday life.

its only his upbringing that caused him to marry another gender. I hope parent from now on will be much more there for their children and accept that they are gay or straight and love them no matter what.

Then we wouldnt have downlow freaks in the gay community

ehuffnsd said:

A lie is a lie.
No one made him get married.

shanti0608 said:

i'm going to have to disagree with you.

ehuffnsd said:

Fair enough.

I just do not think he is being fair to the 2 ppl he should love the most. He is also being dishonest to himself.

shanti0608 said:

i believe he may being dishonest because he feels he is protecting them.

shanti0608 said:

Well his wife sure as hell isnt' being fair to anyone in this situation either. She KNOWS he's a cocksucker and yet here she is trying to figure out how she can use her child to manipulate him into staying. She certainly is in a position to change things as well. She's willing to create a facade for the sake of the child. Well many people do very well with single mothers or stepfathers and many people are destroyed that have a 2 parent household. She needs to come to grips with reality and be responsible here too.

my main concern is if he used protection-gay or straight. He could have at least done that for her. I read a article in Essence magazine about a woman who was infected with HIV by her boyfriend. only then did she find out that he was sleeping with both men and women behind her back. At the time of the article being published he was still seeing whom ever he was seeing. He had even gotten a woman pregnant in the midst of him still denying being gay. I think its scary that in the new millinium that people can still be so careless and selfish. Lets forget about her feelings for a minute and think about her health.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I was referring to the friend of Dan's where the wife does NOT know.

heybaby said:

That is a very good point and a huge concern.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

If he was honest day one she would not be in that situation. Cause and effect bro.

Its a bad situation i agree and there are many issues such as acceptance and tolerance that cause these things...all of which need addressing but bottom line is the way we live our lives:

Treat others as YOU would want to be treated.

WHat happens after that is merely consequence of our own actions. Simple

shanti0608 said:

we are assuming she doesn't know.

ehuffnsd said:

True. I have known women that had NO clue what so ever.

mdiver said:

Simple for you. You like pussy

I am not disputing any of your points and I am not tyring to make excuses for this guy but people need food for thought on this issue because cut and dry blanket solutions aren't always the way men in his position are going to approach things. Until you live this deeply in fear, it's really hard to tell someone not to react to that fear. That is what is at issue.