Thank U to all the brave people that Served and still serving not only my country, but the other countries that have allowed me to be here now... God bless!

there was just a part of a documentary on
about the soldiers we have lost in afghanistan.
it's important to remember the person behind the statistic.

thank you

Each year on this day my grandfather at night time would put on some music and sit quietly reflecting on the day, he would cry then smile then cry again. When it got late he would then pour himself a glass off whisky then walk over to his music system and turn it up a little louder then sit back down when the song ended, he then raised his glass tears would roll down his face.

He told us all what happened in those days and told me to remind my children and make sure when they had children that they teach them. I have done what he told me, Papa my teacher my friend I miss him so I will always remember and tonight my glass may not have whisky in just hot chocolate but I will raise my glass just as he did.

I'm ambivalent about Rememberance Day. I understand the sentiment but find the delivery to be quite pro-war.

There are no "heroes" in war, only cattle.

Justin1972UK said:

I am against the war in Iraq but that does not mean that all of the wars in the past were wrong.
I am all for peace but I know that there were some wars that were "necessities" at that time.
My grand father fought, he was the most gentle, peace loving, kind, good hearted human I have ever known...also BRAVE.

I would never think of him as cattle.
Cattle (sheep, as I call them) are ppl who bitch about the war, bitch about fighting but send others off to fight wars for them as they sit back and make money from it.
just my

EverSoulicious said:

Justin1972UK said:

Maybe we should have let Hitler march his way over Europe. You would have been wearing a pink triangle and residing in Belsen about now mate. Thank fuck for cattle.

[Edited 11/11/07 13:52pm]

Justin1972UK said:

Rememberance Day is also a day for people to remember those who did not fight in wars the ordinary people, those people who gave help in rescuing, hiding, protecting and getting people to safety,these people are heroes and are remembered. It’s a day to remember all those killed that did not fight in wars the innocent ones that where murdered a example is those that got murdered in the Holocaust.

Shame on you what you said is a very low thing 2 say Justin you need to go back to your history books and study. I have family members that where murdered in the Holocaust, for you to call people "cattle" is an insult to them and all those murdered. .

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[Edited 11/11/07 14:08pm]

mdiver said:

I'm not saying that we shouldn't acknowledge the debt owed to those whom gave their lives for a just cause. I just find the way in which Rememberance Day is celebrated to be over-bearingly militaristic.

There's nothing heroic about killing others or being killed. I don't agree with medals and the notion of heroism in war. I'm sorry - I just don't. Every soldier whom has ever been forced to the front-line by their country is equally tragic.

And yes, I wear a poppy every November. I just don't agree with the emphasis given to "fallen heroes". I think that the annual Rememberance Day commemorations should also acknowledge the non-military victims of war (like the pink triangle-wearing occupants of Belsen you mentioned) and it should not be just another excuse to roll the cannons out once a year.

I mean, the ceremony opened with a gun blast... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...089225.stm

...that's almost like holding a wake for a victim of skin cancer, in a tanning salon.

katt said:

So, I suppose Wilfred Owen's anti-war poetry is shameful and insulting too?

Justin1972UK said:

The poem is not one I would read neither do I like the use of the word "cattle" but i get what the person is trying to say..



You came across as if you implied all where cattle in what your wrote and that there are no “Heroes” when in fact there are many millions,

Don’t you get why some would find the use of that word insulting in relation to this day when innocent people where herded in as if cattle to be slaughtered your choice of words in my opinion is dissrespecting them.


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[edit - 2 fix typos also my dyslexia is playing up grrr]

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[Edited 11/11/07 14:48pm]

katt said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...lfred_Owen

Justin1972UK said:

Thanku for the link Justin but I still think the way you used the word came across insulting I wasnt the only one that thought this you should read back at other people posts.

Justin1972UK said:

Thank you for bringing my thread to the ground.

It strikes me more and more tragic, that it's the old, corrupted, and powerful, who send the young, idealistic, and courageous off to fight.

I've made some of the best friends ever in the military. But mine was a generation of relative calm (if you can call it that). The stories the Greatest Generation have to tell still give me goosebumps in comparison.

Justin1972UK said:

Absolutely not, anti war is one thing but to refer to young men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice as "cattle" is downright disrespectful. Cattle don't think for themselves they just go are herded. HAve you ever spoken to a veteran about the moral implications of their CHOICES. HAve you ever looked in to the eyes of say an infantryman who was there for the liberation of Dachau?

Do you want to ask THEM if they just followed blindly or they thought what they did right then was right?

Have you asked THEM the morality of how they felt and called them to their face CATTLE?

NO I AM WILLING TO BET NOT?

You just sit on a website basking in the freedom they fought for and talk crap.

we remember those service men and women who lost their lives in battle..

we remember those who r still fighting for our liberty and freedom, things that we sometimes take 4 granted....

but my family also remembers my gran, who passed away on rememberance day 1994

prb said:

shanti0608 said:

ty

I have two reasons to celebrate this day, the first being the obvious and the other being that one of my children was born on rememberance day

prb said:

katt said:

ty

mdiver said:

I'm sorry, but:

01. Soldiers are cattle, cannon-fodder, pawns. Yes, it's disgusting but war is disgusting;
02. Not everybody whom goes to war has a choice to do so - and some of those that did choose to fight were coerced into doing so by propaganda and misinformation.

There is nothing romantic or heroic about an eighteen year-old losing their life in a stinking trench a thousand miles away from home. To then commemorate their premature death with an annual militaristic procession, is beyond the pale.

Yes, we should honour the dead and acknowledge the debt we owe them. No, this shouldn't involve a parade of arms or flag-waving jingoism.

Justin1972UK said:

I know we are all about freedom of speech, but you are talking out your arse here and totally missing the point.

Justin1972UK said:

Your 2 points contradict each other Justin. Your issue is 2 fold, if you dont like the militaristic angle to saying "thankyou" to these people then fine but to disrespect their memory and the sacrifice they made by calling them cattle is both disgusting and arrogant. YOU enjoy your freedom because of THEM.
Blanket statements like "they are just cattle" just goes to show that you do not grasp what many of them did and how they felt about the service they gave.

It disgusts me that people with that attitude enjoy the freedom in the same way that those of us appreciate the choice they made do.Having said that many of the veterans i have spoken to would cut you a whole load more slack that i would.

So this young man, in this true story.....just cattle was he?????


http://www.abc.net.au/sun...m?backyard

Cattle?

http://www.wfrmuseum.org....inners.htm

I'm sorry, but I didn't invent either the concept or logistics of war...

I'm not apologising for anything I've said.

In war, people are treated as cattle.

I find militaristic displays in rememberance of war's casualties, to be offensive.

You can all go back to your photo threads and popularity contests now.