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PrintableOCEANA said: Aerogram said: Saddam cannot be compared to Hitler in terms of the military threat he poses. Germany had one of the most modern and powerful arsenal in the world. Saddam's might isn't very mighty at all. In fact, he must be flattered that his weapons are the talk of the world. Yes he is probably flattered that HE and his "weapons" are the talk of the world...He does not have any that we know of...It is the chemical and biological warfare that is a threat to us and not only to us the USA but to other countries at some time in the future...And we do not even know if he has nuclear weapons...But chemical and biological is BAD ENOUGH!Obviously, I consider chemical and biological weapons to be.. well, weapons. I remember the Gulf War, and they were saying more or less the same things they are saying today. Saddam was at the heigth of his military powers, and... what happened? From all the Gulf War Veteran Syndrome articles, it seems preventive vaccines to protect American soldiers from chemical and biological agents actually did more harm than Saddam's much touted bioterror arsenal. How could he possibly do better now, after years of sanctions and tight airspace surveillance? We're being sold exagerations and distortions. Back in the days of the Gulf War, they invented news stories about Iraqis throwing Kuwaiti babies from their incubators, stuff Bush Senior repeated as truth. And back then too, Saddam was said to be really close to having the bomb -- they made it sound like it could happen any time. Congress doesn't hesitate to rely on the "expert" testimony of Iraqis who have left the country many years ago, and they are so very sure that Saddam is only a couple of months away from his ultimate goal. We've been promised "dossiers", but so far, the media and other countries seem unimpressed by the "evidence", which was said to be so damning before it was released. We're being sold the same old salad once again. Now, with the Bali bombing, the dance Bin Laden want us to do will take place. The West will become very interventionist in its fight against terrorism, and will end up looking imperialistic, which will perpetuate the problem. Besides money, the biggest resource terrorism draws from is despair. As for the "perceived threat" doctrine, just imagine if any country felt justified in lauching preemptive strikes against anyone it declares a threat. It's a recipe for an ever more dangerous world. [This message was edited Mon Oct 14 19:49:24 PDT 2002 by Aerogram] | |
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(Snip. Flame removed. Ian). "When they tell me 2 walk a straight line, I put on crooked shoes" | |
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ian said: Well OCEANA I do of course wish your son well but I'd imagine that the innocent unarmed Iraqi civilians are the ones who need all our good wishes.
so true. but it's Saddam who puts his own people in harm's way, by supposedly/allegedly building military control centers in populated/residential areas, or by supposedly/allegedly (just covering my ass) using his own people as human shields. not that there's much those people can do about it, but it's just another sign of Saddam's disregard for humanity... | |
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OCEANA said: SoulPower from what I understand your profession is to report, most reporters know their history. Do you know your country's WW II history? Your SS and Gestapo alone killed many innocent people. 
Have you heard of the Nuremberg Trials and Hitler's desire for world domination? That is all in the history books my friend  . The German Army of WW II and it's leaders were the
ultimate war criminals just like Tojo was for Japan. Hmmm... Did I ever said something different? In fact, I have studied my German history at university... and all I said above was that Germans have been brainswashed by nazi propaganda the same way you are being brainwashed by US propaganda. We the liberators (U.S. and it's Allies) could have left your country just the way they were - in ruins - but instead rebuilt it with the Marshall Plan (if I can remember you and I had this conversation many months ago). You are familiar with the cause and effect of the Marshall Plan. It paved the way for your country to be the way it is now. Free and Democratic and prosperous (which is why I do not understand your bitter resent to the U.S.)  .. Who's bright idea was it at that time to
spend billions of American money to rebuilt your country's infrastructure. The rebuilt plan of Germany was for two reasons: 1.America wanted to create a country on their terms, which will buy american goods once rebuilt and that way make a major contribution to US economy. And thats exactly what happened, Germany is America's most important customer. It was a wise decision. 2. The US and the USSR were about to go on war. America needed a stable country to operate from. Germany was packed with nuclear missiles, still is, and if that happened, Germany would have been the battle ground for WW III. We were just lucky it didnt happen... So to sum this up, the Marshall plan was nothing humanitarian. Anyway, U.S. leaders of today, Pres. Bush and his top cabinet still follow the same compassion and desire whenever they decide to take military action  compassion... I'd call it greed. America is the most powerful nation in the world, they dont need to fear anybody... its all about business.
and yes sometimes I agree and sometimes I do not but first and foremost, just like ANY other leader of any nation, his first duties it to protect its national security. When Sept 11th happened, we had to take military action. An act of "self-defense" to protect our way of life. National security? alright, the US got attacked by terrorists.Btw Saudi-Arabian terrorists, whose country is occupied by the US since 11 years. Of course they want them out because they are a disgrace to their religion, their way of life. Imagine if the Arabas occupied the US... Americans would strike back of course. I dont wanna justify the attacks on 9/11, but I understand where the people are coming from. Unfortunately it was Afghanistan. Our leaders goal was to destroy the terrorist threat (Al Queda) and to remove those who harbor them (Taliban). Yes unfortunately you have attacked the wrong country, a country that has already been destroyed. A country run by a government created by the US. Actually Pakistan is hosting Al Qaida. But the US made Pakistan their ally. Isnt that strange? Why is it that you havent found any of the Al Qaida leaders after a year of war? As in all wars, innocent people get killed 
even our own troops periodically get killed. It's called fracticide or friendly fire incidents. yeah, and killing civilians is called "colleteral damage". Would you wanna be part of such a term? Btw: Friendly Fire is another terrible term for killing your own people by accident. Nice way of labeling things, dont you think? You mentioned about those meals that were dropped from our Air Force planes that resembled cluster bombs. Of all your arguements, this one I agree DID HAPPEN, however, our military leaders realized that the COLOR of the meals were the same color of those cluster bombs that they were dropping on the terrorist but After it was discovered, the U.S. company who packaged the meals CHANGED the color to BLUE instead of yellow/orange
yes, they have changed them... but only they have dropped all packages (Gnrl Franks has said that in public). The problem is not think of it in the first place, and thats what the US government and military are known for, they act first, see what happens, and then think over the effects. ..But our intention was not to kill innocent children as you claim. I wasnt claiming that. it wasnt the primary intention, but a logical consequence. btw, the meals packed included pork (in an islamic country a disgrace) and little american flags and snicker bars. How would you feel if the arab league bombs your hometown into ashes and then drops food decorated with arab flags? Why dont you mention this is your reply/respond to me. Yes, during combat things go wrong. People die innocently including those in the purported wedding party. Deep down in my heart, I believe the U.S. forces at the scene made a mistake.(come on now...this was a war zone why were they haveing a wedding?) its not what you believe "deep down in your heart". I was there when it happend, Oceana. Last November and last June. I could write up a whole essay about the backgrounds of this murder, and you would burst in tears and be ashamed. Only so much now: The US air force did somebody a favor. Enough said. And I cant believe you want stop people from getting married because its war. BECAUSE of the war many people got married, because they didnt know if they were gonna survive. Obviously you have never been to a country affected by war, then you would understand. Our troops fired only when they were fired upon. errr... have you been there? have you seen it? I think not. I have seen US helicopters fireing at pick up trucks because they assumed taliban might be driving them. But they knew that the pick up truck is the most common car in that country. Our 4-Star General toured the village and tried to make amends. At the same time, our troops investigated the incident. What you do NOT know (and if you did you SHOULD have mentioned it) is that during one of the tours, a U.S. soldier saw a FRESHLY MADE DRAWING of an AAA GUN (anti-aircraft artillery gun) depictedly shooting at a helicopter.  I find it very interesting that when asked the villagers about the drawing, they
said that it was drawn during the Soviet-Afghan war of the 1980's . Funny, if it was an old drawing, carved or painted 20 years ago. Why did it come right off when the U.S. soldier touched it? Obviously it was drawn very recently.
And so what if they drew it? They were under attack, Oceana. They were attacked by your forces. So they should better hold still and not even draw? I think the villagers were shooting at our helicopters and someone wanted to record it somehow. If you don't believe this story. Do some research. If you are going to tell a side which is your side of a story you have to tell the WHOLE truth. Not calling you a liar but dont believe the hype SP, you would only believe propaganda! 
If you dont believe this story, thats your problem. I have been there and I know all the details. They have been firing in the air with handguns, as it is a common habit at weddings. No reason to send helicopters. When I got to the village, I saw the dead bodies of two young girls who have been trying to espace to the river. They have been followed and precisely shot. I think you have to do some research here outside of the official US army bulletin. Whose propaganda shall I believe you say? Afghanistan? they dont even know what that is... I tell the whole truth, but obviously you dont chose to hear it. the truth might be painful. It was to the germans too, back in the 1940s. But many refused to believe that Hitler could do such a thing. So they preferred to eat the propaganda. Again, I'm sorry if your son has to go to war. He's a victim just like the iraqian soldiers. But sometimes its better to really dig deep and look behind the scenes. [This message was edited Tue Oct 15 1:53:26 PDT 2002 by soulpower] "Peace and Benz -- The future, made in Germany" | |
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soulpower said: So to sum this up, the Marshall plan was nothing humanitarian. ..... THE DRAWING? You admit it was drawn...Like a map? ...I dont want to argue over whos country "brainwashes better"...I am off to work and running late...SoulPower [This message was edited Tue Oct 15 3:57:37 PDT 2002 by OCEANA] | |
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OCEANA said: soulpower said: So to sum this up, the Marshall plan was nothing humanitarian. ... THE DRAWING? You admit it was drawn...Like a map? ...I dont want to argue over whos country "brainwashes better"...I am off to work and running late...SoulPower
[This message was edited Tue Oct 15 3:57:37 PDT 2002 by OCEANA] Dahling, please... The USA isn't about being humanitarian. That's how it is presented by your self-serving leaders, who are quick to present themselves as champions of virtue, freedom and all that is good. Unfortunately, history tells us that superpowers always coated their control freak tendencies with several layers of "humanitarian" goals such as bringing "civilisation" to far-away shores, not to mention converting the "savages" to the proper faith. Today, only the method and the coats have changed. Then it was "civilisation", now it's "democracy". The reality is that the US don't intervene where they have no geopolitical interests. Remember Rwanda? Poor country, an horrible genocide by machette, and where were the Americans? It would have been fairly straightforward to take up that nation, but nothing happened, because it's too far away from the Middle East (unlike Somalia...), so there were no big speeches about saving Rwanda from some evildoers. I'm not surprised you want to believe this is all a great humanitarian enterprise. Your son is in the army, training for all of this. I wish him luck. At least, he wasn't drafted into all this and will do what he voluntarilly trained to do. From an american perspective, it is a noble thing to do, yet I know that soldiers everywhere are told they are doing the noble thing enlisting in their respective armies. It is a sacrifice for them and their families to put their lives at risk and their faith in their leaders. We just disagree on how just this cause is. [This message was edited Tue Oct 15 8:01:29 PDT 2002 by Aerogram] | |
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Well said Aerogram. | |
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Aerogram said: OCEANA said: soulpower said: So to sum this up, the Marshall plan was nothing humanitarian. ... THE DRAWING? You admit it was drawn...Like a map? ...I dont want to argue over whos country "brainwashes better"...I am off to work and running late...SoulPower
[This message was edited Tue Oct 15 3:57:37 PDT 2002 by OCEANA] Dahling, please... The USA isn't about being humanitarian. That's how it is presented by your self-serving leaders, who are quick to present themselves as champions of virtue, freedom and all that is good. Unfortunately, history tells us that superpowers always coated their control freak tendencies with several layers of "humanitarian" goals such as bringing "civilisation" to far-away shores, not to mention converting the "savages" to the proper faith. Today, only the method and the coats have changed. Then it was "civilisation", now it's "democracy". The reality is that the US don't intervene where they have no geopolitical interests. Remember Rwanda? Poor country, an horrible genocide by machette, and where were the Americans? It would have been fairly straightforward to take up that nation, but nothing happened, because it's too far away from the Middle East (unlike Somalia...), so there were no big speeches about saving Rwanda from some evildoers. I'm not surprised you want to believe this is all a great humanitarian enterprise. Your son is in the army, training for all of this. I wish him luck. At least, he wasn't drafted into all this and will do what he voluntarilly trained to do. From an american perspective, it is a noble thing to do, yet I know that soldiers everywhere are told they are doing the noble thing enlisting in their respective armies. It is a sacrifice for them and their families to put their lives at risk and their faith in their leaders. We just disagree on how just this cause is. [This message was edited Tue Oct 15 8:01:29 PDT 2002 by Aerogram] Well said Aerogram! ...But as you said " I know that soldiers everywhere are TOLD they are doing the noble thing enlisting for themselves and their families" but keep in mind what you just said...You disagree on how just this cause is? This is not OUR fault! This is what is so great about the USA...We have choices and we are free...Why do you all want to come here yet you all hate us? You ask about Rhwanda? America CANNOT be everywhere DOING everything...You all expect for the United States President to be the WORLD President (whoever the U.S. Pres. happens to be, at the time)...YOU ALL CHOSE US to be the POWER because NOBODY else has the  BALL's! Now getting down to BIZ-NIZ You mentioned about Somalia? Well, go back to your history books  . We went there in '93 NOT because of oil (they don't have that or anything for that matter (that we need) but because a million people were starving to death. We went there and the Somalian people ended up killing the Pakistani peacekeeping soldiers, why? Because the WARLORDS wanted the food themselves.. Well now, we had to step in and help Pakistan find the killers. Anyway, in the end 18 of our toughest and bravest soldiers died. And for what ? They died for nothing because in the end, the Somalian people knew only one way of life, and that was the tribal infighting that has gone on for hundreds of years. The whole AFRICAN CONTINENT is full of tribal fighting. They are still primitive (sorry to say) and have no desire to help or improve themselves. You mentioned Rhwanda. That sir, is on the same African continent. Do you propose we send our best and brightest fighting men and women to end tribal fighting between the Hutu's and the Rhwanda tribes? Like YOU SAID, they use machete's and any other farm tools to kill one another . Now tell me, why would we go there ? You are right in some way but our leaders since the Vietnam war have learned a valuable and painful lesson! Send our boys (men and woman) where our country's interest lies, be it oil or the safety of the freedom, where at stake. America will always be the forefront of the battle. If it bothers you (enough for you to mention) about the bloodbath taking place in Africa, then where were the the civilized countries like Germany, France, Finland? Why did they not help the african's (as in RHWANDA) as you mentioned? Why did they not send their soldiers to end the killings? The same reason us Americans did not go there. It's a hopeless and god forsaken place to intervene. Take Iraq for example. Why do we go there again? One, the threat that Saddam might provide his chemical and biological weapons to Al Queda and who knows who else he may provide them to  but U.S. cities like Los Angeles or New York could face another tragedy. Who know's, he may use them against our allie's (Israel, England). Do you think our leaders will take that chance? Look what they did on Sept.11th, we lost over 3,000 people (WTC tower, Pentagon, people on the planes, people on the streets) on just that one day. As for OIL we got smart after the 1973 oil embargo. We receive our oil from different places and NO LONGER depend solely on Middle Eastern Oil , Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc. If you do some
research, the U.S. now imports oil from Alaska, Venenzuela and Mexico... Japan and Europe however receive more than HALF of their oil from the Persian Gulf region (Saudi, Iraq, Iran,Kuwait, Bahrain. That my dear is the MAJOR reason why we go there. To protect the oil pipeline to our ALLIES like Europe and Japan. Now why you all want to do us like that  Now does that sound like a selfserving act on our part? I don't think so. Once again, our lives will be placed in harms way. Body bags will come home. But our country has always stood tall in times of crisis. We didn't become the SOLE SUPERPOWER without sacrifice. We fended off the Soviets  for 50 plus years and because of it, Germany again is united as one country and scores of other -Latvia, Bulgaria, Poland, czechoslavakia, are now free
from opression and are triving democratic countries . Without the U.S. support this would have never materialized... | |
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OCEANA said: The whole AFRICAN CONTINENT is full of tribal fighting. They are still primitive (sorry to say) and have no desire to help or improve themselves.
It's not like that country hasn't been raped and carved up for all the Gold and Diamonds and any other mineral the US and Britan can get their hands on.And of course the people there want to live in poverty,just like the poor here.Speak what you know and quit trying to sell the US as some country built on honesty and hard work.I was wondering when the old-Oceana would come out.Was always there just below the surface.Save today. | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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I opened this thread because I felt the pain of a mother worried about her son. But why, oh why, did I bother to read the rest of this mess. God Bless America. | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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OCEANA said: Aerogram said: OCEANA said: soulpower said: So to sum this up, the Marshall plan was nothing humanitarian. ... THE DRAWING? You admit it was drawn...Like a map? ...I dont want to argue over whos country "brainwashes better"...I am off to work and running late...SoulPower
[This message was edited Tue Oct 15 3:57:37 PDT 2002 by OCEANA] Dahling, please... The USA isn't about being humanitarian. That's how it is presented by your self-serving leaders, who are quick to present themselves as champions of virtue, freedom and all that is good. Unfortunately, history tells us that superpowers always coated their control freak tendencies with several layers of "humanitarian" goals such as bringing "civilisation" to far-away shores, not to mention converting the "savages" to the proper faith. Today, only the method and the coats have changed. Then it was "civilisation", now it's "democracy". The reality is that the US don't intervene where they have no geopolitical interests. Remember Rwanda? Poor country, an horrible genocide by machette, and where were the Americans? It would have been fairly straightforward to take up that nation, but nothing happened, because it's too far away from the Middle East (unlike Somalia...), so there were no big speeches about saving Rwanda from some evildoers. I'm not surprised you want to believe this is all a great humanitarian enterprise. Your son is in the army, training for all of this. I wish him luck. At least, he wasn't drafted into all this and will do what he voluntarilly trained to do. From an american perspective, it is a noble thing to do, yet I know that soldiers everywhere are told they are doing the noble thing enlisting in their respective armies. It is a sacrifice for them and their families to put their lives at risk and their faith in their leaders. We just disagree on how just this cause is. [This message was edited Tue Oct 15 8:01:29 PDT 2002 by Aerogram] Well said Aerogram! ...But as you said " I know that soldiers everywhere are TOLD they are doing the noble thing enlisting for themselves and their families" but keep in mind what you just said...You disagree on how just this cause is? This is not OUR fault! This is what is so great about the USA...We have choices and we are free...Why do you all want to come here yet you all hate us? You ask about Rhwanda? America CANNOT be everywhere DOING everything...You all expect for the United States President to be the WORLD President (whoever the U.S. Pres. happens to be, at the time)...YOU ALL CHOSE US to be the POWER because NOBODY else has the BALL's! Now getting down to BIZ-NIZ You mentioned about Somalia? Well, go back to your history books . We went there in '93 NOT because of oil (they don't have that or anything for that matter (that we need) but because a million people were starving to death. We went there and the Somalian people ended up killing the Pakistani peacekeeping soldiers, why? Because the WARLORDS wanted the food themselves.. Well now, we had to step in and help Pakistan find the killers. Anyway, in the end 18 of our toughest and bravest soldiers died. And for what ? They died for nothing because in the end, the Somalian people knew only one way of life, and that was the tribal infighting that has gone on for hundreds of years. The whole AFRICAN CONTINENT is full of tribal fighting. They are still primitive (sorry to say) and have no desire to help or improve themselves. You mentioned Rhwanda. That sir, is on the same African continent. Do you propose we send our best and brightest fighting men and women to end tribal fighting between the Hutu's and the Rhwanda tribes? Like YOU SAID, they use machete's and any other farm tools to kill one another . Now tell me, why would we go there ? You are right in some way but our leaders since the Vietnam war have learned a valuable and painful lesson! Send our boys (men and woman) where our country's interest lies, be it oil or the safety of the freedom, where at stake. America will always be the forefront of the battle. If it bothers you (enough for you to mention) about the bloodbath taking place in Africa, then where were the the civilized countries like Germany, France, Finland? Why did they not help the african's (as in RHWANDA) as you mentioned? Why did they not send their soldiers to end the killings? The same reason us Americans did not go there. It's a hopeless and god forsaken place to intervene. Take Iraq for example. Why do we go there again? One, the threat that Saddam might provide his chemical and biological weapons to Al Queda and who knows who else he may provide them to but U.S. cities like Los Angeles or New York could face another tragedy. Who know's, he may use them against our allie's (Israel, England). Do you think our leaders will take that chance? Look what they did on Sept.11th, we lost over 3,000 people (WTC tower, Pentagon, people on the planes, people on the streets) on just that one day. As for OIL we got smart after the 1973 oil embargo. We receive our oil from different places and NO LONGER depend solely on Middle Eastern Oil , Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc. If you do some
research, the U.S. now imports oil from Alaska, Venenzuela and Mexico... Japan and Europe however receive more than HALF of their oil from the Persian Gulf region (Saudi, Iraq, Iran,Kuwait, Bahrain. That my dear is the MAJOR reason why we go there. To protect the oil pipeline to our ALLIES like Europe and Japan. Now why you all want to do us like that Now does that sound like a selfserving act on our part? I don't think so. Once again, our lives will be placed in harms way. Body bags will come home. But our country has always stood tall in times of crisis. We didn't become the SOLE SUPERPOWER without sacrifice. We fended off the Soviets for 50 plus years and because of it, Germany again is united as one country and scores of other -Latvia, Bulgaria, Poland, czechoslavakia, are now free
from opression and are triving democratic countries . Without the U.S. support this would have never materialized...I am so very sorry, but I cannot begin to explain all that is wrong with this whole answer. I'm just gonna take a nice hot bath, and I suggest you do the same. | |
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[Snip. Private discussion / flaming removed. Ian] | |
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Okay, I'm unlocking this thread again for a bit, since I've now had the time to go back and remove the flames and other rubbish that got this thread locked in the first place.
OCEANA wants people to address the points she has highlighted. Enjoy. | |
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