jonylawson said:

Did you READ what he said about how his doc treated him? That's what peeps are talking about.

Yeah, a fag with a broken arm is the same as a breeder with a broken arm, as far as fixing the arm. But. . . what if their boyfriends broke their arms? Is the gay man gonna be offered the same resources as the woman? Judgment on the part of doctors could shift care in plenty of situations.

HereToRockYourWorld said:

the probelm with the word homophobia is people can say they aren't afaird of homosexuals they just don't approve of their lifestyles. there needs to be a better word to discribe the prejudice faced by GLBTs
[Edited 10/9/07 12:09pm]

ehuffnsd said:

Homophobia is a dumb word, certainly. It's too charitable.

ehuffnsd said:

It exists: "disagreement."

I think this sort of thing comes not because LGBTs are somehow different than the rest of the population with regard to health issues, but, in fact, because certain folk – no doubt including some service professionals -- assume they are.

I’d hate to think this sort of thing pans out in a full-on refusal of critical care by most professionals. The egregiousness of such a thing would be intolerable and indefensible even by the most virulent opponents of gender-variant “lifestyles,” I’d suspect. Still, certain assumptions very well may negatively influence the quality of care administered (especially maintenance and elective care), the bedside manner of a professional and, therefore, confidence in the patient-caregiver relationship that would see an LGBT patient readily seek care in the first place…

* Justin1972UK already gave an example where administration of drugs is regarded.

* Mushanga gave a somewhat troublesome example of a caregiver in training.

* I personally had a gay friend who experienced rectal bleeding due in large part to a longstanding gastrointestinal problem he suffered. He refused for days to go see a doctor, though, because he feared being so deeply humiliated by having a physician find out he’d recently been the receiving partner in anal intercourse.

* I’m happy to say I’ve personally dealt with related bias only once: One healthcare professional commenced to lecture me about gay men’s promiscuity – something she simply took for granted -- when I identified as gay.

And there have been more serious instances…

http://www.petertatchell....ersion.htm

http://humaniststudies.or...&article=0

http://www.washblade.com/.../10898.cfm

http://www.glaa.org/archi...html#loron

http://www.usatoday.com/n...suit_x.htm

Given an overarching and mounting societal conversation over the appropriateness and, for some people, even the human worth of LGBTs (my own sister, months before I came out, commented that a particular gay man she knew was “a complete waste”), how many instances must happen before we stop seeing these examples as “out of context” or isolated, and perhaps rather given to a simmering systemic issue?

Lastly, I’ll only mention that apprehension over this sort of thing hints at the inevitable damned-if-we-do/damned-if-we-don’t situation. The increasing number of professionals who refuse some treatments to LGBT patients based on their own philosophical/religious differences should be protected, we’re told. Fine. Are we then supposed to happily forego treatments out of respect to them while simultaneously not opting to support caregivers who may better have our interests in mind? That may not stand to reason.
[Edited 10/9/07 21:53pm]

well i think its unfortunate IF some of you had negative experiences.

all im saying i-and as i work in the "front line"-have never ever seen any reg.nurse or doctor ever discriminate against ANYBODY-even those who are telling us to FUCK OFF on a saturday night whilst a knife protudes from their abdomen.
being gay doesnt even come into it-i speak personally and i think i can speak confidently for my colleagues-it is utterly irrelevant-ethnicity,sexuality etc

and ive doing this job since 1991-ive worked in the largest city centres to the australian outback.

i remeber when had one of my first lectures on H.I.V and she asked the question "would you treat somebidy with HIV differently"

a few repsonded in the positive and she calmy responded then perhaps you shouldnt be doing the job!

discrimination is the one thing that is not tolerated.

jonylawson said:

I have no reason not to believe you, brother.

It's just that, unfortunately, painful things have happened/are happening that are making some people feel they need to "claim sides" ...definitely in the U.S., and I can only guess throughout the world. Given your own accounts, I'm GLAD if these sorts of slights are still fairly rare. But apparently enough has happened to make people knuckle up. I hate it as much as you do.
[Edited 10/9/07 19:48pm]

ThreadBare said:

my life doesn't need approval from anyone, therefore i should be protected from people who treat me differnet because they "disagree" with something I have no control over,

ehuffnsd said:

And, I didn't say you needed my approval or anyone else's.

People disagree with others' politics, fashion sense, career decisions and the names they give their children. Disagreement over our respective sexual politics shouldn't be surprising.

And, that disagreement isn't something exclusive to people who are gay. I've gotten weird looks because of some of the women I've dated. Folks didn't approve because of their being a different ethnicity or older than me.

They disagreed with my choices. And life went on. It really is that simple for a lot of people.

Now, is it right to discriminate against someone because of those politics?barring sickos who prey on children, no.

But to expect some folks to not disagree with your orientation or lifestyle is a bit unrealistic.

ThreadBare said:

however it's become uncooth to publicly say it's your right to discriminate against other groups except for sexual oriniation.

ehuffnsd said:

I disagree. I think a lot of people still bristle at feeling like politically correct standards are being forced upon them. I certainly hear a lot of folks mocking "black issues" and images in pop culture.

I think people always will notice and remark upon (perceived) differences. As a black man, part of my maturing in America has entailed understanding that most folks are just going to treat me differently (even if they don't mean to).

Again, so long as those reactions don't translate into discrimination or worse, I don't see the issue.

Lammastide said:

alright!-amen to that.im finished this topic now-intresting points made and good to hear from you again lammastide.

ThreadBare said:

have ever they do translate into discrimination. In 34 States you can be legally fired if your employeer found out you are gay.

Doctors can refuse you service if you are gay, because by helping a gay person you are offending them.


People will beat you up and kill simply because you are gay.


Parents lose children in cudstoy battles because they are gay.

Parents kick kids out of homes because they are gay.


This really goes on every day in America. It's not made up. IT HAPPENS.


Just like I have a differnt understanding of racism in America, and until I started talking about with people over in PnR, because I'm white

Gay people have a differnt understanding of homophobia and how it effects us in everyday life because he have to experience it.


and remember we are used as politcal pawns to scare people into voting because gays may gain equality and bring the wrath of God upon America.

jonylawson said:

That's because you live in a civilized country The Bible belt is the worst thing to ever happen to planet earth....

ehuffnsd said:

Exactly. Rational Christians should really stop acting like "disagreement" is all it simply is. A lot of evil fucked up wicked shit is perpetrated on us because of Christian ideals and beliefs. Recognize.....

Having my family doctor practically state that homosexuality is a mental illness that can be cured, is an extreme example. A lot of the homophobia I encounter is due to people whom don't know me, assuming that I'm straight.

The last occasion was at work, a few months ago. A new team member was referring to a transgender female worker on another floor as "shim" - which was apparently a 'humourous' pronoun derived from "she" and "him"... I told the colleague that they might be offended by this, if they overheard him. The colleague then went on this rant about how he didn't understand "queers" and didn't believe that they hadn't chosen to "be that way". It jarred me a little. I just assumed that most people realise I am gay.

I think that's the main difference between homophobia and racism. Racism is more covert, due to ethicity obviously being apparent. I'm positive that many non-white people know dozens of supposed friends, acquaintances and colleagues whom are poltically correct to their face but are racist behind closed doors.

I don't know which is worse really - knowing your enemy or not knowing.

I live in NYC and my Doctor is Gay... he's the greatest ... best Doctor i have ever had....

Justin1972UK said:

It's hard to say.

I'm mixed race and white looking. (grey eyes, sandy hair, light skin, the whole bit) There've been more times than I can count when a person treats me one way assuming I'm white, then behaves completely differently on learning I'm not as caucasian as they assumed. Some people go so far as to slow down their speaking and enunciate their words. My appearance makes me privy to certain comments and jokes that would never be said in front of me if I were darker. The assumption being that I'm white and therefore cool with some good old fashioned race humour. On the other hand, I think it's important for me to remember that I'm allowed access to aspects of white priviledge I wouldn't be otherwise, and not just to take it for granted that I can go into a store withou being followed, or buy liquor without dirty looks and drunk Indian comments.

As for my sexuality? Same thing. I'm bisexual, but not obvious in a cliched way. I've got hetero camouflage just like I have white camouflage, and the same benefits and drawbacks come with it. On the one hand, I can walk down the street even in the roughest areas and hold hands/hug another woman and no one will say a thing, but on the other hand I hear all kinds of comments and jokes about dirty fags and scary lesbos I wouldn't if I were more obviously queer.

So is it better to know or not know your enemies? I'm not sure.

ehuffnsd said:

dude, I'm not saying gays aren't discriminated against. As for the 34 states with anti-gay laws, I'm pretty sure they're archaic laws that wouldn't survive legal challenges in today's court system.

All groups are used as political pawns. Uneducated Southern whites, "soccer moms, black middle class professionals.

Our impasse is clear: I believe I have as much a right to disagree about your personal life as you do about mine.

And you suspect my disagreeing is just as harmful to you as people who would beat/fire/not treat/evict you based on your orientation.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Supa. I've said to you about 1 million times that there obviously are people who use religion to justify their homophobia. For some of us, we accept the Bible's teachings as well as Christ's admonition to show kindness to everyone and to judge no one. Other folks need to be delivered from hatred. I think we're clear on that. And there are ministries afoot (in my church, for example) to address that very wrong.

But you never seem to think Christians have a right to believe what our doctrine says. I understand your context of reaction. But it's not nearly as black and white as you often suggest.

ThreadBare said:

You can think what you want about queers, and we can think what we want about Christians.

But you have the right to get married, have hospital visitation, inherit property, and just walk down the damn street while holding the hand of the person you love without worrying about a bat coming down from behind you and cracking your skull open while some hick cop stands by and laughs.


Christians, as a group (and, sorry, but ya are one, as much as queers are), have loudly condemned us, while being rather quiet about that other stuff.


To frame this as mere disagreement is disingenuous. You and I may disagree about the morality of my partnership, and about whether or not Christianity is one of the greatest lies ever perpetrated by and on humanity. But the fact remains, "my people" are not trying to take away your right to be who you are, fully, in a free nation. "Your people" ARE trying to keep that from us.
[Edited 10/10/07 21:13pm]

HereToRockYourWorld said:

Not if she resembles Reese Witherspoon, Charlize Theron or Faith Hill, and we're here in Tennessee or worse... Those are actually the things I'd worry about.



And that's just plain wrong. Hypocrisy isn't a virtue.

I never said the extent of this issue was about disagreeing. My original post to Ehuffsnd dealt with the nuance that he brought up. People are responding to me as if I stated in an oversimplistic way. And, I've repeatedly said throughout this thread that discrimination was wrong...

*tap, tap, tap*

Is this thing on?

ThreadBare said:[quote]

HereToRockYourWorld said:

but you have made it oversimplimatic. people use their beliefs to dictate how i can live my life.

i'm sorry your rights end where mine stop. if you believe homosexuality fine believe it, but don't prevent me from getting married to the man i love if i should chose to do that.

Justin1972UK said:

see.....i just dont believe you

if you had reported that to the general medical council the guy would have been struck off

did your GP realy tell you that being gay is"a mental health disease" because that is a serious serious thing your saying.


why didnt you report him?

jonylawson said:

I'd just taken an overdose a day before and wasn't in any fit state to challenge his glib remark.

The doctor is called A.K. Ghosh and practises from Little Lever Health Centre in Bolton. I'm not afraid if this information ends-up in the Google Cache forever and could be deemed to be libellous as it is true. He told me that if I took his happy pills, I'd be "married with children in a couple of years" after I'd told him I am gay.
.
[Edited 10/10/07 23:54pm]

okay i should have said-I CANT BELIEVE IT!

you should have reported his ass pronto

sorry if i offended you

i just cant believe guys like that practice

ThreadBare said:

You are clear to believe the bible all you want and I am telling you now that this conversion bullshit your church is engaging in is going more harm than good to the gay community you intend to "minister" to. you think you are acting in love and strapping manipulative chains on people and trying to convince them that they can change what cannot be changed is not only wrong, it's evil.

jonylawson said:

Believe it Jony. I'm sure if you took a poll, most of the gay folk here have stories to tell. It happens and I'm glad you are a civilized human being focused on the real mission of your work and that is to care for humanity. Thank you

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Again, a difference of opinion.

ThreadBare said:

Clearly. But just because you think you've got God on your side doesn't mean you're right in your actions.

GayAway camps and therapy are really just a new trend in the same religious bullshit that was responsible for residential schools. Both are fundamentally the same thing. You take X minority (gay, native) and attempt to force them to change their very nature, (sexuality, race) make them believe something that is very much a part of their being is inherently wrong and dirty and immoral and displeasing to God. And what happens? Do these gay people become straight, and did those native children become white? No. So what are we left with? Countless hundreds of thousands of people with severe emotional and psychological scars -all because some self-righteous twits with a Bible thought they had God's ok.

It's sick.