Rhondab said:

Logically you are safe unless you are made of brocolli

Rhondab said:

also, you're comparing animal rights types to pro-lifers who are also pro-death penalty. so to complete your analogy and illustrate the fatal hypocrisy of those fanatics who eschew the joys of scrapple and beef jerky, animal rights people are anti-animal-cruelty, but oddly also pro....._____?

i like keeping up with my carnivore brothers and sisters, and just wanna know how i'm being generalized this week.

Anxiety said:

Hippy

Am I incorrect (or in the minority) when I say that meat eaters (myself included) are, bottom line, hyprocritical when it comes to badmouthing hunting/sporting/etc when we're contributing to the factory farm axis of evil? Freedom of speech and all that, but do we have the right to be taken seriously?

I don't know, I just feel wrong about it, especially when meat-eaters use the anti-abuse stance to appear self-righteous. Ideally, shouldn't it be all or nothing?

INSATIABLE said:

Interesting point Jana but I personally don't feel hypocritical speaking out against cruelty to animals.

INSATIABLE said:

Lothan said:

isn't killing animals for consumption cruel ?

INSATIABLE said:

i think if you can make the logic work for yourself and you're comfortable with what you practice and believe, then screw what other people on either side of the debate are trying to make you believe.

i think in terms of the whole topic of animal welfare (i personally don't use the term "animal RIGHTS" to refer to what i believe, because i don't think animals are aware of the concept of "rights" - i think "welfare" is a more apt term ), we all have our own lines of ethics, our own limits of what is and isn't acceptable, what we can and can't do, etc. i think once we are able to accept our own "line", we're able to be in a better place when dealing with people who are either far more or far less involved in finding their own "line".

Dewrede said:

Yes, it is and I cannot sit here and lie to try to reconcile it.

Lothan said:

You're definitely a Mac girl. Get a mac.

Lothan said:

Absolutely. But to play veggie's advocate here, shouldn't we be as angry/vocal on a daily basis, as factory farms are killing animals by the thousand each hour?

Comparing that to a few sweet doggies (and you know I agree with you), and isn't it a backwards point of view?

Dewrede said:

No, not imho.

It is like everything in our lives, we can all point at areas in EVERYONE elses life and say find areas where people are doing things we don't agree with. We all have to make our own choice and if one person finds it cruel then fine don't eat meat. If another one sees nothing wrong then fine, allow them their opinion and freedom too.

Lothan said:

[Edited 8/28/07 10:45am]

Anxiety said:

This post has Bill Clinton written all over it.

I'm sorry, Chris. It must get really old for you with these repetitive veg threads.
[Edited 8/28/07 10:43am]

I find it odd that alot of vegans and vegetarians own pets that eat meat. Though there are soy based foods for animals, most choose to feed them what is natural for the animal--meat.

I think the moral high ground with vegetarianism and veganism is a moving target really. I am sickened by my own meat consumption, knowing that in America we use "Factories" to produce our meat, which is quite cruel. But vegans and vegetarians who own pets that eat meat to me, though not nearly on the level of "cruelty" that I am, are playing some kind of moral shuffleboard (in my opinion) when rationalizing their choice to own pets.

INSATIABLE said:

I agree that my views on this, comparing the two, are a bit extreme. I tihnk people don't get upset about the killing of animals every day because it benefits them in some fashion. Regardless of my love for meat, I still think about the animals that are dying.

INSATIABLE said:

i think if everyone quit eating factory-farm produced meat products even ONE or TWO days a week, it would send a loud message to the meat industry. i'm not even saying quit eating meat - just take regular "vacations" from meat raised unethically (and i'm not just talking about discomfort/abuse to the animal - i'm also taking into consideration the crap that gets pumped into the animals that you guys are eating every day). i do think the industry is slowly nearing a corner where the mainstream production of meat is concerned - we've got chains like chipotle and trader joes offering ethically produced foods at very reasonable prices - the progress *IS* beginning. and once smoking has been effectively eliminated from the face of the earth, the no-no refuseniks are going to have to have SOMEthing to make people feel guilty about - so hold on to your wigs, meat-eaters! after ciggies, alcohol and caffeine...you're next!

mdiver said:

I agree with your post Phil but it does not answer the question. Killing animals is cruel, regardless if it is to eat them or for sport.

BTW Jana, I have never never seen any of those types of films. I can't do it.

Lothan said:

I'm shutting up, now. It always seems I'm badgering you about something. Which is silly, since you're one of my favorite people ever.

INSATIABLE said:

You're not badgering me at all. I like your questions actually. They make me think and do some much needed self-examination.

Anxiety said:

And yet Anx, I don't disagree with you at all.

I'm looking at a statement from a man that made a judgement call about killing animals for food and yet didn't value his own life in the same manner. We all fall victim to hypocrisy myself included but I just found it very interesting coming from River. It was an observation that reminded me of why I take issue with pro-lifers.

I like other meat eaters who battle with the cruelty issue as we continue to eat meat so the hypocrisy is there.


For me personally, spiritually, there is nothing wrong with eating meat, red, white or whatever. Its gluttony, over indulgence of any food that is the issue. Too many of anything just isn't good. So its a ethically dilemmia


And frankly...I have no idea where I was going with this post but...whatever...


I need some meat...brb.

Lothan said:

Me either darling, for two reasons.

One: It will kill something inside of me. I am extremely sensitive and overempathetic and I lack the ability to separate myself from the pain I see, whether it's inflicted on animals or humans.
Two: When I DO watch, and I'm planning on it in the near future as I've got copies of a few docs (I haven't even watched Fast Food Nation yet), I know that the moment I turn them off, I'll never, ever eat meat again. There's no question.

#1 will be a bigger deal, obviously. The pain will be GREAT. And pain that heavy will stifle my ability to operate right now, and my life is extremely busy. Towers will topple. I can't lose it right now!

oh fuck you people! I post something serious and I still can't be part of this cliquey conversation!

INSATIABLE said:

I agree with 100% of what you've said.

Imago said:

ok....let me see...."factories...yeah ok...morals....highground..oh great point.....and a shuffleboard...."


that was deep!!

Rhondab said:

Lothan said:

I really don't see it as cruel. Cruel implies some sort of pleasure or pre determined desire to inflict pain and suffering on someone or something. I don't see it as that.

Imago said:

Okay, okay. Christ, you sound like Dani.

I don't know, man. My cat loves her uber-expensive adult formula food and I'd feel cruel forcing her to eat soy. It's something I'll have to investigate. Is it healthy for animals to go meatless? Sure, buying pet food that contains meat ALSO contributes to factory farming. Then again, she's my furry lovebug and I don't want her to eat something that tastes like poop.

Fucking fuckity fuckass.

Rhondab said:

wouldn't you say that river's substance abuse issues were somehow indicative of some kind of mental illness - depression, addictive behavior, whatEVERtheheck...?

if someone with self-destructive issues such as river were still able to find the wherewithal to have passionate beliefs that he did his best to follow through and be passionate about, i see that as a minor victory in his life - not so much as hypocrisy. at least he found his way around his own self-destructive behavior to attempt SOME kind of positive change in his world while he was alive.

mdiver said:

you don't or you won't?