Now, for those of you that are nonbelievers, I just
wanted to share something I found that isn't BIBLE
related. Of course I'm only sharing this with you
because I care -

http://www.godandscience....uotes.html
:READ: ON

Here are a few:

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for
me powerful evidence that there is something
going on behind it all...It seems as though somebody
has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the
Universe...The impression of design is overwhelming".

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would
say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just
somehow by chance."

Ver Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite
order displayed by our scientific understanding of
the physical world calls for the divine."

Alexander Poyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know
that nature is described by the best of all possible
mathematics because God created it"

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we
shall...be able to take part in the discussion of
the question of why it is that we and the universe
exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be
the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we
would know the mind of God."

---

Of course we have heard of the the word FAITH!

___

BORN AGAIN BELIEVER

i believe...

...that this is the wrong forum.

PlastikLuvAffair said:

You are right, it should be in the GD - and for
that I'll give you some cake!

EchoOfMySoul said:

is it chocolate?

PlastikLuvAffair said:[quote]

EchoOfMySoul said:

is it chocolate?

__

Echo says -

Absolutely - CHOCOLATE - WITH CHOCOLATE FROSTING and maybe
butterscotch filling, and with CHOCOLATE SHAVINGS ON THE
TOP, or maybe CHOCOLATE TRUFFLES!

C - Princeorg. forgave me - and moved my topic!



[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 14:29:53 PDT 2002 by EchoOfMySoul]

Thanks Echo...Faith is so delicious!!!
Science and math are just the icing!!!

I am believing!
I am knowing!
I am happy!
I am satisfied!

The miracles are as big as the universe and as small as
the atom with all it's orderly parts...Remarkable!!!

Would you like a HUGE list of scientists who DO NOT believe?

EDIT: And many of these scientists do not mean what you think they do by god. Many think of god as nothing more than a mathematical formula and not a loving, caring entity.

...
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 14:58:48 PDT 2002 by IceNine]

IceNine said:

Please...Don't get him started...PLEASE!!!

The god of Stephen Hawking and the vast majority of all scientists:

Stephen Hawking's God

In his best-selling book "A Brief History of Time", physicist Stephen Hawking claimed that when physicists find the theory he and his colleagues are looking for - a so-called "theory of everything" - then they will have seen into "the mind of God". Hawking is by no means the only scientist who has associated God with the laws of physics. Nobel laureate Leon Lederman, for example, has made a link between God and a subatomic particle known as the Higgs boson. Lederman has suggested that when physicists find this particle in their accelerators it will be like looking into the face of God. But what kind of God are these physicists talking about?

Theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg suggests that in fact this is not much of a God at all. Weinberg notes that traditionally the word "God" has meant "an interested personality". But that is not what Hawking and Lederman mean. Their "god", he says, is really just "an abstract principle of order and harmony", a set of mathematical equations. Weinberg questions then why they use the word "god" at all. He makes the rather profound point that "if language is to be of any use to us, then we ought to try and preserve the meaning of words, and 'god' historically has not meant the laws of nature." The question of just what is "God" has taxed theologians for thousands of years; what Weinberg reminds us is to be wary of glib definitions.

dewmass said:

Do it Ice!

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann, Princeton University Press.

"The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning."

Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann, Princeton University Press.

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism..."

Albert Einstein, "The World as I See It"


...

Stephen Hawking's conception of god is precisely that of Einstein's.
...
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 15:33:24 PDT 2002 by IceNine]

From Stephen Hawking:

"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn’t prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary."

===

One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics. [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

===

Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now, centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference -- the possibility that space- time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death!

===

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."

===

Stephen Hawking, Theoretical Physicist
Although he speaks of "God" in the metaphorical sense of some creative force, he has stated that he is an atheist.

At a physicist's conference Hawking was attending after his book A Brief History of Time was published, a reporter approached him to ask if he did in fact believe in God, given the "mind of God" reference near the end of the book. Hawking responded quickly (suggesting his answer was pre-prepared) "I do not believe in a personal God."

Mikhail A. Bakunin (1814 - 1876)

"Christianity is the complete negation of common sense and sound reason."

"If God existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."

===

Henri Bergson (1859 - 1941) won Nobel Prize in 1927

"Homo Sapiens, the only creature endowed with reason, is also the only creature to pin it's existence on things unreasonable."

"The universe is a machine for creating gods."

===

Auguste Comte (1798 - 1857)

"The universe displays no proof of an all-directing mind."

"Religion is an illusion of childhood, outgrown under proper education."

===

Denis Diderot (1713 - 1784)

"To prove the Gospels by a mirale is to prove an absurdity by something contrary to nature."

===

Thomas Alva Edison (1847 - 1931)

"My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul; but I simply do not believe it."

"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God."

"Religion is all bunk."

===

Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

"The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of (cosmic) religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God made in man's image; Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who are filled with the highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as Atheists, sometimes also as Saints."

===

Sigmund Freud (1856 - 1939)

"The derivation of a need for religion from the child's feeling of helplessness and the longing it evokes for a father seems to me incontrovertible, especially since this feeling is not simply carried on from childhood days but is kept alive perpetually by the fear of what the superior power of fate will bring."

"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

"We shall tell ourselves that it would be very nice if there were a God who created the world and was a benevolent Providence, and if there were a moral order in the universe and an after-life; but it is a very striking fact that all this is exactly as we are bound to wish it to be."

"The greater the number of men to whom the treasures of knowledge become accessible, the more widespread is the falling-away from religious belief - at first only from its obsolete and objectionable trappings, but later from its fundamental postulates as well."

===

Xenophanes

"Mortals deem that gods are begotten as they are, and have clothes like theirs, and voice and form...yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their several kinds."

===

Julian Huxley (1877 - 1975)

"Gods and God in any meaningful sense seem destined to disappear."

===

Robert G. Ingersol (1833 - 1899)

"The hope of science is the perfection of the human race. The hope of theology is the salvation of a few and the damnation of almost everybody."

===

William James (1842 - 1910)

"Religion, in short, is a monumental chapter in the history of human egotism."

===

Walter Kaufmann (1921 - 1980)

"Faith in immortality, like belief in God, leaves unanswered the ancient question: is God unable to prevent suffering, and thus not omnipotent? or is he able and not willing it and thus not merciful? And is he just?"

===

Karl Marx (1818 - 1893)

"The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people."

"The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice, self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the qualities of the canaille."

===

W. Somerset Maugham (1874 - 1965)

"I cannot believe in a God that has neither honor nor common sense."

"Now the answer is plain, but it is so unpalatable that most men will not face it. There is no reason for life and life has no meaning."

===

H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

"If we assume that man actually resembles God, then we are forced into the impossible theory that God is a coward, an idiot and a blunderer."

"The truth is that every priest who really understands the nature of his business is well aware that science is its natural and implacable enemy."

"The truth is that Christian theology like every other theology, is not only opposed to the scientific spirit, it is also opposed to all attempts at rational thinking."

"I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind."

"I believe that the evidence for immortality is no better than the evidence of witches and deserves no more respect."

===

Freidrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

"So long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?"

"Almost two thousand years and no new God!"

"It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he wished to become an author and not to learn it better."

"The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation."

"All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race - before it had learned the obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications."

"Wherever Germany extends her sway, she ruins culture."

"The most serious parody I have ever heard was this: In the beginning was nonsense, and the nonsense was with God, and the nonsense was God."

"Could it be possible that this old saint in the forest has not yet heard of it that God is dead!"

"Lo, I teach you the Overman. Man is something that is to be surpassed."

"There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than thy body: fear therefore nothing any more."

"What is it: Is man only a blunder of God's, or God only a blunder of man's?"

===

Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize [hu]mankind."

===

Petronius (? 66 A.D.)

"Fear created the gods."

===

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

"I am myself a dissenter from all known religions, and I hope that every kind of religious belief will die out. I don not believe that, on the balance, religious belief has been a force for good. I regard it as belonging to the infancy of human reason, and to a stage of development which we are outgrowing."

"God and Satan alike are essentially human figures, the one a projection of ourselves, the other of our enemies."

"I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian God may exist; so may the Gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them."

"Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand."

"The argument that there must be a first cause is one that cannot have any validity. If anything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God."

"My own view of religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery."

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the gospels in praise of intelligence."

===

Georges Santayana (1863 - 1952)

"The fact of having been born is a bad augury for immortality."

"In spite of centuries wasted in preaching God's omnipotence, his omnipotence is contradicted by every Christian judgment and every Christian prayer."

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety toward the universe and denies only gods fashioned by man in their own image, to be servants of their human interests; and that even in this denial I am no rude iconoclast, but full of secret sympathy with the impulses of idolaters."

"The absence of religion in Shakespeare was a sign of his good sense."

===

Jean-Paul Sartre (1905 - 1980)

"There is no God and no prevenient design which can adapt the world and all its possibilities to my will."

"There is no human nature because there is no God to have a conception of it. Man simply is. Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself. That is the first principle of existentialism."

"If God exists, man does not exist; if man exists, God does not exist."

===

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

"If God made the world, I would not be that God, for the misery of the world would break my heart."

===

Percy Shelley (1792 - 1822)

"Necessity teaches us that if God is the author of good, He is also the author of evil. God made man such as he is and then damned him for being so."

===

Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

"Atheist: A name given by theologians to whoever differs from them in their ideas concerning the divinity, or who refuses to believe in it in the form of which, in the emptiness of their infallible pates, they have resolved to present it to him. As a rule an Atheist is any or every man who does not believe in the God of the Priests."

"Reason is, of all the things in the world, the most hurtful to a reasoning human being. God only allows it to remain with those he intends to damn, and in his goodness takes it away from those he intends to save or render useful to the church. If reason had any part in religion, what then would become of faith?"

===

Alfred North Whitehead (1861 - 1947)

"Must religion always remain a synonym for hatred?"

"As for the Christian theology, can you imagine anything more appallingly idiotic than the Christian idea of Heaven? What kind of deity is it that would be capable of creating angels and men to sing his praises day and night to all eternity?"

===

Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)

"People fashion their God after their own understanding. They make their God first and worship him afterwards."

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."

"Science is the record of dead religions."

===

...
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 18:01:37 PDT 2002 by IceNine]

I can post more.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."

I've always felt this way-we're just smarter apes who have fooled themselves into believing in higher apes.
The chaos that i call the human race proves me right day after day.
To pretend the violence and aggression of everyday humans is something we have no part of, is both naive and arrogant.
And all due respect to one's religious beliefs, but i think religion is for idiots and is simply social mind control.

Let's say science and spirituality are both correct. The following excerpt is taken from Book 3 of Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch.

"It's important to learn about Divine Dichotomy and understand it thoroughly if you are to live in our universe with grace. Divine Dichotomy holds that it is possible for two apparently contradictory truths to exist simultaneously in the same space. Now on your planet people find this difficult to accept. They like to have order, and anything that does not fit into their picture is automatically rejected. For this reason, when two realities begin to assert themselves and they seem to contradict one another, the immediate assumption is that one of them must be wrong, false, untrue. It takes a great deal of maturity to see, and accept, that, in fact, they might both be true.

Yet in the realm of the absolute--as opposed to the realm of the relative, in which you live--it is very clear that one truth which is All There Is sometimes produces an effect which, viewed in relative terms, looks like a contradiction.

This is called a Divine Dichotomy, and it is a very real part of the human experience. And as I've said, it's virtually impossible to live gracefully without accepting this. One is always grumbling, angry, thrashing about, vainly seeking "justice," or earnestly trying to reconcile opposing forces which were never meant to be reconciled, but which, by the very nature of the tension between them, produce exactly the desired effect.

The realm of the relative is in fact held together by just such tensions. As an example, the tension between good and evil. In ultimate reality there is no such thing as good and evil. In the realm of the absolute, all there is is love. Yet in the realm of the relative you have created the experience of what you "call" evil, and you have done it for a very sound reason. You wanted to experience love, not just "know" that love is All There Is, and you cannot experience something when there is nothing else but that. And so, you created in your reality (and continue to do so every day) a poloarity of good and evil, thus using one so that you might experience the other.

And here we have a Divine Dichotomy--two seemingly contradictory truths existing simultaneously in the same place. Specifically:
There is such a thing as good and evil.
All there is is love."

I see those that believe in Science only and those that believe in religion only to be two aspects of a Divine Dichotomy. Those that believe in Science that state that God cannot exist and those that state that science is wrong and that science has nothing to do with creation. Both of these ideas exist within this Divine Dichotomy. Both are true and yet both are false. There is nothing to prove that God exists except for Faith of those that believe and what people might call miracles. And there is nothing to disprove that God does not exist, though some scientists state that they cannot see the proof of God, perhaps it is not with the eyes that one must see the "proof" of God but with the heart.

Both aspects of Science and Religion in my most humblest of opinions, exist to get the desired result. The result is to seek until one finds, both within science and religion. Science has yet to unlock many doors (ie what is the other 94% of the brain used for, among others) and religion has yet to incorporate science into the realm of creation. There are those that believe in both God and evolution (I being one of them). No where does it state in the Bible or elsewhere that this physical creation was an instantaneous event, though the Bible states Days, a day within the infinite realm of time can be millions of years. I believe that truth will be found within the integration of both science and the faith in God. This is just my opinion though.

Wow, Infinities... how long did that take to type out!?

I love those books, too, btw!

AzureStar said:

LOL didn't take too long. I can type fairly quickly as you well know. lol Those books are the greatest. And thanks Azure, for being you.

Love the quotes, Tony!

Hesiod (800 B.C. - ?)

"Mortals deem that gods are begotten as they are, and have clothes like theirs, and voice and form...yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their several kinds."

I very much doubt that Hesiod wrote this. It sounds much more like Xenophanes, who lampooned the pious Hesiod.

narcotizedmind said:

Don't feel bad narco, I always get those two mixed up too.

But it is Xenophanes. Of that I assure you:

http://www.abu.nb.ca/Cour...phanes.htm

narcotizedmind said:

There is a very real possibility of this... I will have to look it up... I got the quote from Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy."

In fact, I am almost 100% certain that it was Xenophanes now that you mention it.

SensualMelody said:[quote]Thanks Echo...Faith is so delicious!!!
Science and math are just the icing!!!

I am believing!
I am knowing!
I am happy!
I am satisfied!

The miracles are as big as the universe and as small as
the atom with all it's orderly parts...Remarkable!!

+++

Echo says:

You got it right Sensual Melody!

IceNine said:

+++

Echo says:

Somehow I just knew you would supply that list
IceNine!

Don't worry I'll read it...but, think about
it, this just isn't all for nothing - is it?

No - I don't think so.

I was brought up like a southern Baptist, or Penticostal!

Anyhow, I don't believe you get to heaven because
you are a certain religion, because I've experienced
all that.

I do believe, however, it is a personal relationship
with God. It is all coming from the heart!

I believe that there is definately a positive
and a negative force out there.

I believe some feel it more then others.

I believe that you can know someone is calling
you after TWO YEARS OF NOT HEARING FROM THEM,
and saying
hello ___ to that person, just
because YOU KNOW IT'S THAT PERSON.

I believe that some people can't even drive on
the highway because of a negative force.

I believe that every soul has an energy,
and that GOD gave it to them to do with
it that GOD would want it to do.

Much Love !
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 18:46:14 PDT 2002 by EchoOfMySoul]

Edit: Nothing to see here...
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 20:36:41 PDT 2002 by BattierBeMyDaddy]

and...

I believe in miracles!

EchoOfMySoul said:

I am listening to that VERY song, right now! Seriously.

and... I do, too.


.
[This message was edited Tue Oct 1 18:48:36 PDT 2002 by AzureStar]

BattierBeMyDaddy...


Not Jesus...

Maybe the other guys...


too sad!