Lothan said:

You know what my response is to this.

Lothan said:

i come from an upbringing where i had a parent who was personally affected by it, and who on the one hand struggled with forgiveness for those responsible and on the other hand, protected me from letting the same thing happen to me...sometimes to a fault. i think as a result, i gained the perspective i have. i don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. it just "is".

Anxiety said:

In many, many ways, R. Kelly does get a pass. He continues to sell out tours, sells millions of records and urban radio continues to play his music. Hell, this is something that happened at least five years ago and is only set to go to trial now.

Anxiety said:

It's fascinating, what we choose to accept and reject.

It's fascinating how closed most of us are to even acknowledging others' "viewpoints", as well! That's not a dig, just an observation of humans and their realities, is all.

I just keep replaying the Dateline/Predator episode where all these older guys (lawyers/doctors/businessmen) went to meet a 12/13 yo girl.

I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You say he was going through the disolution of his marriage, and got caught up in online porn. Ok, I'll buy that, but why did it have to be CHILD porn? There are plenty of adult porn sites.

He made a GIGANTIC mistake?? No, it was not a mistake, it was a crime. In my book, there is no worse crime than one against a child. They are defenseless and innocent. And according to many studies (and my personal experience) men don't just up and decide "one day" to want to have sex with kids. They don't go through a crisis and try to meet a kid for sex. This has been simmering in their minds, and has led to the act.

Sure, he changed his mind at the last minute, but next time he may have gone through with it. And it's THAT little girl who my feelings are for. Watching the Dateline show let me see that men do not think about their careers/family/children when they decide to do this.

I do not think I could remain friends with someone who had this in their heart. I have seen the consequences of this crime.

Honestly, RodeoSchro, would you ever leave him alone in your house with your underage daughter?

noimageatall said:

What needs to happen in order for someone to get out of their ''comfort zone''? … if U set your mind free, baby, maybe U'd understand...

Just for the record, I don't buy R. Kelly's music. The guy disgusts me. And I hate the entire "double standard" we have for musicians/actors who date underage kids.

noimageatall said:

if i based my moral code on what airs on NBC television, i would be a very different person indeed.

INSATIABLE said:

Not sure what you mean. Comfort zone meaning "I should be comfortable letting this guy babysit my daughter?" Or "we should give the guy a break for wanting to have sex with a kid?" Explain, if I got that wrong.

I don't base my moral code on what airs on television. That is unfair and simplistic. Rather insulting too.

noimageatall said:

is it just as simplistic to base one man's deeds on a dateline story? this is a big planet, with a lot of different brains skittering around everywhere. to say with any authority that the billions and billions of brains on this planet can be easily summed up by a diane sawyer investigative report is a little astonishing to me.

an end result is an end result is an end result. but to go so far as to say everyone makes the same mistakes for the same reasons and they go through the same process is kind of, well...i don't agree with you. or with NBC.

noimageatall said:

Just read your original statement and tell me it's not a solid brick wall. You hurt yourself more than anyone else by allowing your "beliefs" to be so incredibly rigid.

What if your best friend committed this crime? Tell me your mind isn't that robotic. Allow yourself to puncture your finger-pointing comfort bubble (and let's face it--it IS comfy, innit?) and consider what you never thought you were capable of.

Don't ever say it's impossible. It is what you want it to be. Why look at thoughts like they're made of solid steel?

That being said, my words have nothing to do with the crime itself. That's not what this conversation's about.

Anxiety said:

Well, that IS what he did, no? Or did I misread what RodeoSchro posted? There is a difference in being in a "comfort zone" and excusing a crime.
[Edited 8/2/07 12:04pm]

noimageatall said:

Who's doing that?

noimageatall said:

i don't think i've suggested once that the crime should be "excused". in fact, i think i've mentioned in several places quite the opposite. and i'll ask it again: why does there have to be an arbitrary disconnect between acknowledging someone's shortcomings and expressing love and support for a person you care about?

Anxiety said:

i think its a tactic people use to deflect other peoples possible negative opinions of accepting something or someone deemed not acceptable. it takes alot of courage to just say whats on your mind amidst popular disagreement. okay where am i going with this

heybaby said:

people screw up all the time. and everyone is someone's son or daughter or parent or husband or wife or significant other. people don't just make horrible mistakes and POOF! suddenly they're EvilTron3000 and they just hatched from a pod from Planet Mean. it's more complex than that. this is not to diminish the debt that person owes for the mistake they have made. but they're still the human they were before that mistake surfaced. aren't they?

heybaby said:

No, you're spot-on. It's A reason, right? After all, people are flesh-and-blood animals, however "advanced", with serious primitive needs. Many people feel the primal instinct to connect to others in a tribal, clan mentality--even if it compromises their thought-processes along the way. Then again, would that make their thoughts wrong? Only internally, if they're not being true to themselves. Like Anx mentioned before, we are a planet of over 6 billion incredibly different, unique minds. But how many of us actually TRULY exercise our individuality on such a level?

Anxiety said:

I would tend to agree, but many criminals lead a double life. How many neighbors do we see on TV talking about how perfectly nice the serial killer next door was.

INSATIABLE said:

well, I think that I do. I live in a racist, mostly homophobic family an have become the black sheep due to whom I choose to love and socialize with. On this subject matter, it is my own feelings and I take no one else's into consideration when I decide how I feel about it.

noimageatall said:

Just what I was thinking.

Lothan said:

I think this site's full of black sheep. Please know I can fully relate.

What about a deeper level, though? Your perception of what is right and wrong? How much of that stems from what American society, your state, your town, your family, your lovers, and your friends' ideals and morals?

How much of what we know is solidly "true" really stems from our own, individual mind from scratch?

INSATIABLE said:

honestly, none of it. My favorite thing about myself is how different I am from everyone else. I appreciate the fact that I don't jump to an easy conclusion and I am able to use critical tinking skills to look at an issue from all sides before making a decision. My life is a little black and white so I do realize that sometimes I am goign to have to go grey.

Anxiety said:

Excused was the wrong word. I apologize. I just think that maybe if we didn't give these people "comfort, love and support,"...that maybe if we were more outraged, disgusted, and active about letting them know, there wouldn't be so many men on Dateline NBC trying to seduce a kid. Maybe if we were much more vocal in our hatred of this crime, or their "shortcomings," there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of children molested each year.

The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment.

-Dr. Ann Burges, Dr. Nicholas Groth, et al. in a study of imprisoned offenders.

I'd say if you wanted to be a true friend, get him some serious help.

noimageatall said:

If it is punishment we are after, I'm sure his fellow inmates will give him some "serious help".

Thank you all for your replies. I have learned a lot reading them. Mainly, that everyone here is very mature and has addressed a serious issue with well-thought-out responses.

To the question of, "Would I leave my underage daughter alone with him?" I'd like to say I would, but I don't think so yet. I love this person and want to support him, but I don't think I could risk my daughter (or anyone else's) until I was absolutely sure.

This guy told me he got into this chat because he was just trying to find someone who wouldn't lie to him. I don't know if he entered a teen chat room or if it was an all-ages chat room, or what. So without knowing all the facts, I couldn't be in a position to offer such inconditional trust.

He was tested both psychologically and physiologically and passed with flying colors. They wired him up and showed him pictures of young girls, and his body had no erotic reaction whatsoever. But, this girl he made a rendevous with wasn't the only under-age girl with whom he had inappropriate chats. It's just not clear.

His ex-wife doesn't believe for a minute that he would have done anything to a young girl. They have a 13-year-old son and an 11-year-old daughter and he has been nothing but a great father. She didn't go into details, but there were other problems in their marriage. I'm guessing a porn obsession (which I know he had, and I bet his wife did not), maybe an affair, but I don't really know.

Mars23 is right about prison. My biggest worry is what I have heard happens to pedophiles. Open season, as it were.

I am not doing prison ministries yet Dani, but it's on my agenda. Your words have inspired me to move it to the top. Right now, I'm just trying to help a couple guys I know that are in prison. Wow, I never thought I'd say that in my life.

Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions. I'll keep you posted.