MsLegs said:

The natural Turkey Baster

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

That's a thought.

OK, I have more questions.....

Does "Organic" or "free range" mean there is less suffering for the animals?

Are these psycho farms in only certain parts of the country or are they wherever you see cows? Here in California when you drive through the farming areas you see cows just lounging around and roaming free. Are these cows for milk, meat, both or neither? Not saying these killer farms don't exist but I've only ever seen cows in that kind of scenario.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

i believe "free range" is supposed to mean that the animals are raised in the most ideal circumstances possible. you're not referring to free-range farms as "psycho", are you? am i gonna have to start calling you supasassy?

Anxiety said:

No! I meant the psycho killer farms

OK, so does the notion that an animal had a standard or even luxurious existence change your stance on eating meat from a moral perspective?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

These poor animals often live like slaves if not worse.

I'd b a vegan if i followed my philosophy completely, but i'm not brave enough

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

not particularly, though i think the moral perspective of eating meat in and of itself is a personal conviction, while on the other hand i believe the quality of these animals' existence before they are slaughtered is something that should be advocated for. i make this distinction, if for no other reason, because my whole attitude toward the "sanctity" issue of not eating meat is still a work-in-progress for me, even after 19 years.

As far as i'm concerned the equation is quite simple:

Any living being, human or whatsoever, has the same rights 2 happiness (whatever happiness means for him/her/it.) If it has 2 eyes, a brain, a heart, lungs, a stomack, etc... i don't c what makes it inferior than me who has all this too in anyway.

Anxiety said:

Damn! Is that how long it's going to take me to give up the meat?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Okay, I'll weigh in...

This could get a little rambly, but stick with me.

Ideally, I'd love to be a vegetarian. For about 3 years, I got very close from about '96-'99. Slowly, I started dropping out more and more meat products as I went. First was pork. Then beef. Then poultry. I got down to only eating fish and became VERY sick. I've always been tall and my weight dropped to 137 pounds. I was a walking stick figure. It wasn't pretty. And I had a really hard time keeping healthy and putting weight back on. I was severely anemic. Now, I don't know for a FACT that it was due to my diet because I was eating very well. But once I started to add more things in, I bounced back.

Everybody's reasons for going veggie are different. For me, it's a basic sadness and a bit of disgust with myself that I'm taking a life for sustenance. And my justifications for what I will and won't eat are as much based on health choices as they are my weird biological hangups. For example, it's pretty well known that leaner meats like fish and chicken are better for you than something like ribs or pork chops or whatnot. And in my strange logic, fish and birds are further removed from humans since cows and pigs are both mammals, so it isn't quite as confusing for me to eat them. I know, that's fucked up. But it's how my mind works.

In 2001 my metabolism totally changed. I started putting on weight. Lots of it. And I got up to 215 pounds within a short amount of time. And last year, I was diagnosed with a heart condition. The combination of looking at myself in the mirror and seeing how bad I looked along with feeling like shit all the time made me want to be accountable for what I put in my body. So in the past few years, I've dropped 40 pounds and am pretty comfortable where I'm at health and looks-wise. And a lot of that had to do with making conscious decisions about not eating fast food, not eating fatty foods, taking the time time to prepare or purchase healthy alternatives. I'm hooked on Trader Joe's. And I feel better for it.

I consider myself an animal lover. I've done tons of animal rehabilitation and rescue. I'm trying to get a job at the DNR. Conservation is one of my passions. For a good 12 years now, I've ideally wanted to be a vegetarian. And I might get there yet.

I guess my point is that it doesn't have to be an overnight thing. And you don't have to go cold turkey. For me it's been a gradual process and highly based on my own physical needs. My ideals and ethic about the subject haven't really changed much. I still TRY my best. And that's the first step. I buy and prepare a lot of veggie dishes. Even when I do eat fish, it's only a few times/week and meat doesn't constitute a huge part of my diet.

So if this is a choice you're considering, make sure it's custom made for you. It seems that you have a stigma that it has to be an 'all or nothing' attitude to really walk the walk and talk the talk. For most, it isn't. To me, all of my choices are fairly integrated. I have a few leather items, but they last me about 15 years. I'm not perfect about recycling, but I do my best. I'm getting better. I buy more and more organic foods and environmentally safe products. I'd like to do more and more animal rescue in the future. Hopefully, I'll end up a conservation officer or at least a park ranger soon.

The nifty thing is that most of these choices aren't only better for the environment and animals, but they're better for us as humans from a health and waste perspective. In that way, they make a lot of sense for everyone to explore.

I'm with Carrie...nobody's perfect but every little bit counts. If I approached every decision in my life with crushing doubt or defensiveness, I'd never do anything. But if I can know that I'm making a little bit of difference and progress personally in some way, then I'm happy. Learn from Anx's message here...it's better to lead by example than by dogma and scare tactics. There are plenty of educated veggies and eco-friendly people out there who would be happy to share info with you. You don't have to be scared of this life choice. It just takes a little digging and knowledge. Ease into it. You might like where it takes you.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

it took me about two weeks to get comfortable with the diet. the whys and wherefores of my decision is an ever-changing journey, though. i've never considered dropping my vegetarian diet, though there are times occasionally when i'll think, "okay, so WHY am i doing this again?" i know why i did it originally - mostly for ethical reasons - and i know that reason has merged with health concerns as i started to see improvements in how i looked and felt - but really, the only reason that has stayed constant is the satisfaction of knowing i've made a lifetime commitment to something...i could walk out the door right now and order up a big bag of mickey d's burgers if i wanted. but i don't want. i GENUINELY don't want. part of that is, at this point in the game, meat looks and smells nasty to me; another part of it is, i've come too far to give it up, and i see no reason why i should. that is gratifying to me.

GangstaFam said:

!!!!!



I have to admit, if there were fast food veggie joints, I'd be more inclined to pick that up as opposed to a freakin fried chicken sandwhich Actually, I love vegetables but my life is so jam packed and full of activity that I don't often have the luxury of just chilling the hell out and vegetarianism seems like a lot of work. I guess it's that more than anything that prevents me from jumping in.

I'd have to actually set aside the time to prepare stuff and buy veggies for lunch and everything and I barely have the time for leisure as it is. I feel bad about the animals but just as important, I don't like the way those stupid ass burgers are hanging on the sides of my stomach! I know I'd feel better too putting more natural and healthy foods in my body so I want to do it from that standpoint too.

Is it OK to have full on cheat days? I think I'd have to, for a while at least

GangstaFam said:

yes yes and yes.

i think a lot of people get caught on the "vegetarian" label, like it's a religion or that it has all these rules that, if you don't follow them to the letter, you've failed. and it's not like that at all. it's a personal process, based on what works for YOU.

if you start cooking lots of veggie meals and still eat some fish or poultry or even red meat now and then, are you a blue ribbon, card carrying vegetarian? well, no. no you're not. but SO WHAT? you're still doing something good for yourself, you're branching out, and you're doing more than you would have done if you hadn't made an effort at all. THAT is the important thing.

even though i have a strict vegetarian diet, i know there are a lot of things i could be doing to be a "better vegetarian", and sometimes that bothers me, sometimes i don't care, and sometimes i actually step up and make those extra efforts. but i know that the lowest common denominator is, i do not eat any form of red meat, poultry or fish, no matter what, and i know i'm at least doing THAT when i'm not doing anything else. other people may have stronger standards than i, and other people may not be able to do as much for whatever reason. but we're all doing SOMEthing. there's nothing bad about that.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I can appreciate all of that.

But you might find that even though there aren't a LOT of veggie fast food choices out there, there still are quite a few. And more and more lately. Sometimes all it takes is a few simple subsitutions and you're good to go.

So I'm guessing you like Mickey D's, right? Do you go there for breakfast before work? Instead of getting the sausage bisquit, get it with egg and cheese instead. Plus, they've got pancakes and hash browns and all sorts of other goodies that are meat-free. Sure, none of them are that healthy, but it's a start.

Do y'all have Tim Horton's out there? They're a fast food chain and they make a killer veggie sandwich. It's so fresh and rich that you won't think twice about what it's missing cuz they cram so much in. They have tons of great pastries and a few veggie soups too.

There are a few places that offer decent salads, yogurt, fruit cups, things like that. If you're in a hurry, there are alternatives. And if your biggest concern is love handles, there are better meat choices too.

I've often thought about opening a good veggie restaurant in my hometown with a take-out window.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

you'd be shocked - SHOCKED - at how many veggie choices there are out there in fast food restaurants and with prepared food at the supermarket. chipotle veggie burrito! almost half of the taco bell menu! subway veggie delite (one of my STAPLES, by the way)!

i don't go to burger joints because the selection is pretty bleak at mcdonalds, burger king, etc. - but even at wendys i can get a baked potato and a side salad. not the feast of kings, but if there's nothing else around i can enjoy a baked tater now and again. didn't i start a THREAD on baked potatos?

and italian food. oh my GOD. there is SO MUCH italian food that doesn't have meat in it. i never have problems ordering from an italian menu. and chinese takeout. veggie heaven.

there's a lot, and you don't have to lift a finger in the kitchen. like gangstafam said, it still may not be HEALTHY compared to home-cooked meals, but there are plenty of alternatives out there. so many that i'd hesitate even calling them "alternatives". more like "selections".

cooking is healthier and cheaper, but it's by no means the ONLY way i can come by a decent veggie meal. not by a long shot.

Anxiety said:

here there's very little choice in restaurants

the meat industry is evil, the way they treat the animals before and after they die

Dewrede said:

where do you live?

Anxiety said:

OK, that is the thing, faced with a choice of a lettuce and cucumber sandwhich with a little dressing on top or a meatball sandwhich toasted and with extra provologne cheese, the cucumbers don't have a chance of winning out Although I do think I could go to wendy's and order the baked potato
[Edited 7/30/07 17:22pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

um, they put more than lettuce and cucumber in a veggie delight sub, silly goose.

you can get it with the works and with extra cheese (they never charge me for the cheese, by the way), or you can get the "veggie max" or whatever they call it at subway - the hot sub sandwich with veggie burger patties.

i think the veggie delites are perfectly flavorful and filling, and unlike your meatball sandwich, i'm not going to feel all bloaty and heavy after i eat. in fact, most of the ingredients in a veggie delight will keep you more regular than a norah jones album!

Anxiety said:

Wait! I totally forgot about veggie burger patties!

Wait! I never tried one, are they good?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

personally, i'm not crazy about the subway veggie patties - but i haven't really given them much of a chance, and i really DO like the cold veggie subs so much that when i want subway, that means i want a veggie delight with pepperjack cheese on wheat bread, hold the pickles, period. i don't really branch out a whole lot there.

in general, though, there are GREAT veggie burger patties. bocaburger's cheeseburger patties are faboo, and there are flame grilled varieties that are great, too. plus they heat up super fast.

i would only warn against trader joe's veggie burgers and veggie chicken nuggets, believe it or not. as much as i LOVE TJs, they've got some work to do in that area. their veggie corn dogs are The Deal, though.

Anxiety said:

You've made me veggie burgers before a night out of partying before. They were perfect.

I really love black bean burgers too. super yum!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

gardenburgers are YUMMY.

Anxiety said:

Holland (the Netherlands)

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

life of a cow as i've witnessed (at least around where i'm from)
born in the spring, take first steps in an hour or two
calf is a couple months old when the herd is moved to summer pasture
everyone gets a fresh ear tag - essentially an earring that keeps the flies away

moms and babies usually get separated, mom moo's distressedly till you are reunited.
you run and play and eat and drink... don't get lost or a coyote might take you down

if you are a boy you will probably have had your nuts crushed
by fall if the farmer doesn't want to increase the size of his herd you will be sold

that "yearling" will either go to someone who does want to increase his herd
or it will go to a feedlot... place where animals are free-fed chopped up grain so it's easily digestible. feedlots around here still have open pasture, they just don't need as much room because they are being suplimented with the grain. they might stay there two or three months before being sold for slaughter.

if the girls stay on the ranch, they get another whole year to eat and graze. they are too young to have their first calf yet. the following fall the bull will be put into pasture with them. then someone sticks their hand up her backside to check to see if you are pregnant. if not, back out with the bull.

when everyone is pregnant the cows come home to the barns for winter. the farmer sets out fresh hay every morning that he had cut in the summer. as spring approaches the farmer watches everyone closely... and for the next six weeks will check cows every two hours, every day. i don't know how they stay sane with that little sleep. the cows need to be monitored to make sure no one gets into trouble giving birth.

if you didn't look after your baby very well you will probably be sold for meat. cows are considered old for the meat market when they are 36 months. however if you were a great mother you will be a favorite and you probably even have a nickname. you will probably spend many summers grazing and have many more calves.

i don't pretend that large factory farms exist. they do. of course as a farm girl i tend to be protective of the people who raise animals. the people i know do it because they love raising them. they want them to be content and healthy and take pride in a well managed herd.

still doesn't make me want to eat meat though i just respect the job that they do. and i believe the majority of meat here is raised in herds of 150 or less, compared to thousands at a factory farm. (we had around 75 at a time i think... i was around 12 dad stopped raising them. too much work!)