Anxiety said:

You really think so? Seriously, the Vegans I have experienced haven't been kumbaya motherfuckers. They have been evil! I think everyone gets really defensive like I'm talking about them when clearly I am not. If you're not evil to me about eating an egg, then it's not you I'm talking about.

And I did say in this thread, again, that I was considering a meatless diet! So I am interested in knowing why I would "need" to stop eating dairy products and eggs if I was to give up meat. I couldn't do both. So maybe hysterics wasn't the best choice of word but trust me, you'd have used it too if you knew the freaks here in Cali
[Edited 7/25/07 17:22pm]

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

ok, so.

why are YOU considering a meatless diet?

Anxiety said:

Well because I don't like the idea of killing animals. But I really do love meat Plus everyone makes these claims like they feel better, etc but the thought of giving up 2 things I love more than meat and that is eggs and cheese is just nearly unbearable.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

before i went veggie i used to eat a LOT of meat. i used to eat lots of fast food. i used to eat a dozen white castles at a sitting and when my mom would make spaghetti and meatballs, she'd give me raw hamburger for a treat and i'd LOVE it. GROSS, but hey - i liked it!

oddly enough, when i TRIED a veggie diet, i jumped into it full-on and i never looked back. i just felt better. i liked eating meals that didn't make me feel like i had a bowling ball in my gut. i liked not feeling greasy and gross after i ate. and the more i was limited to veggies, the more i really began to appreciate the taste of them. sometimes you just gotta really try something and commit to it and see how it works out. if it's not for you, you'll understand WHY it's not for you, and then maybe you won't have the conflict between wanting to go veggie and loving meat, and you'll find other ways to address the ethical issues you have. that's all i can offer.

Anxiety said:

Do you still love me?

I don't know how to go about it other than to just do it. I guess you'll see the kinder gentler Supa after I stop eating death products
[Edited 7/25/07 17:34pm]

I like it when vegetarians wear leather. I know that not everyone goes veggie for ethical reasons, but it sorta gives me giggles.

What doesn't make me laugh is the assholes I would see on the St. Paul campus of the U of MN (a largely agricultural campus) who took to throwing meat at a vegetarian friend of mine simply because they didn't like her choice.

RipHer2Shreds said:

i think everyone draws the line at a different place....like, i'll wear leather boots or belts but i will also wear the bejeezus out of them and buy items that i know will last a long, LONG time. i won't own any kind of fur item at all, because i think it's a luxury item and i find fur farming offensive. i know veggies who would think i'm evil, and i know veggies who don't even think about such matters. it's when someone is lecturing about the evils of animal cruelty while wearing their snazzy leather shoes that it gets a little bit - some people are just asking for it.

what i really don't understand are people who feel some kind of affront or offense at the very idea of vegetarianism, and feel a need to project some kind of meat-eater bravado by taunting and saying stuff like "i loves me a big dead bloody steak!" and calling people mobys. what's so threatening about vegetarianism? i think people who don't drink coffee are crazy but i don't preoccupy myself with going all about cappucinos whenever i'm around those people. they like tea. i like coffee. it happens.

RipHer2Shreds said:

OMG!! I had cucumbers thrown at me once while eating a burger! But for some reason, I kinda liked it

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

oh, you know it's not about love or not-love. i just don't see what the big to-do is about all this. to me, being veggie is a personal thing. it's not a big political demonstration that i undergo every day when i make or order food. it's just what i do. when it gets politicized or when it becomes the topic of debate, my biggest gripe is that it's being made into a bigger hubbub than it has to be. my diet makes me happy. sometimes i wish i could take it farther, and maybe some day i will. maybe if you removed the stigmas and dogmas and other assorted "-mas" from the issue, you'll find something that may simply be a diverting challenge for a while, or possibly a positive life change...or just something you can say you tried and it wasn't for you.

Anxiety said:

Well I guess that's why I approach the issue from a non Mother Theresa perspective Vegetarians here in Cali are fucking crazy Most are so militant about it and I totally don't appreciate the grief from the other direction. At least I'm willing to consider giving it a try but damn if some of these people need to chill

Anxiety said:

You know what I just realized, this is the buddha in you. I probably could use a little more enlightenment

Anxiety said:

See...a veggie, yet you abuse the meat! Rude.

I am rarely offended by either side of the argument, but I'm occasionally annoyed with both. On the entertainment side, I don't like how the meat industry tried to ruin kd lang for her stance. And then PETA pisses me off with their little care packages telling fat celebs that they're fat cuz they eat meat.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

You liked having a big phallus thrown at your pie hole? Shocking.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

maybe you should move to chicago, because the meat-eaters here are fucking militant crazy.

but seriously, even if you lived in the middle of a million chrissie hynde clones (actually, that would be glamorous), your responsibility is really to YOURSELF and not to how you feel you need to respond to all the crazy behavior around you. i think a lot of militant animal rights people are off their rockers myself, and i think they hurt the "cause" with their polarizing attitudes...but it just makes me want to express the way i do things all the more. i've turned more people on to a less meat-centric lifestyle just by cooking a good dinner than i ever would from busting out a bunch of brochures with bloody cows and tormented chickens. going veg can be fun and the food can be REALLY good. and as a side effect, you're doing something good for yourself and for other living things. that's just how i look at it, and it's served me well.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

Come on. It's not that bad.
Some Cali veggies are militant about it, sure, but most of my friends who don't eat meat don't make a big deal about it and don't judge me for eating/wearing animal products (at least not to my face).

very interesting

who cares....what can i eat to get rid of my blemishes?

For me, eggs and dairy are the exact same issue as meat. I'm not particularly concerned with the death or autonomy of the animals, because they're not. I'm concerned with their experience of life. Their suffering.

And as you noted, Richard, animals being raised for eggs/milk are treated no better than animals raised for meat. In fact, because of the length of their lives, it's arguably a worse experience to be a dairy cow than a beef cow.

And while it may be "natural" for a cow to produce milk, or a chicken to lay an egg (to the extent that anything about cows/chickens is "natural"), the quantities that they produce are not natural and strain their bodies, and cows are repeatedly impregnated, with the baby cows taken from their mothers so that WE can have the milk. Not natural, and very unhappy for the cows.

I SO appreciate Anx's laid-back, non-judgemental, live-and-let-live position on all of this. I'm not quite there. I'm not going to be "evil" to people who buy these products from factory farms (which is where they come from unless you specifically seek out something different). But I feel no obligation to be quiet about what goes on at those places. I think it could be different if more people knew.

And I believe that it's ok to speak up loudly when somebody helpless and voiceless is being harmed at the hands of somebody powerful.

HereToRockYourWorld said:

And ya know, I agree with what you're saying, and I want to get back to a point where I can start advocating for stuff like foie gras bans and the like...I'm really not *AGAINST* people sharing information - even really GRAPHIC information - about the horrors of factory farming, not only with regards to animal welfare but also in terms of health risks to consumers. I think that information is necessary.

I think where I'm coming from is, when people think of vegetarians/vegans, most people automatically start to think that we're all a bunch of overzealous animal rights radicals who lack humor and don't care about good food. I think my approach is to show folks the "up" side of being a veggie - that the food can be really awesome, and hey...you can even eat unhealthy veggie food! - and if the conversation turns to "why are you doing this?", then we can talk about the "down" side of eating meat.

I've just seen so many people turned off by PETA ads, when really, all ya gotta do to get someone to listen is make one super good tofu curry.

And I need to log off the org and STAY logged off for a couple of weeks -- got shit to do -- so if anybody cares to respond directly to me, email me.

Anxiety said:

I absolutely love your perspective, I really do.

HereToRockYourWorld said:

I see nothing inherently evil about milk and eggs but considering the perspective you have given, I can see the objection. That's all I wanted to know.

What I don't understand is how come you still see Vegans wearing leather shoes/coats/handbags etc???

CarrieLee said:

have you ever asked 'em?

also:

http://www.alternativeout...ategory=16

ya never know what's pleather these days...

CarrieLee said:

Yup and how they were made. And how so many "enviromentally friendly" products are exactly made. Nobody is 100% animal friendly, no matter what they may argue.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I hear ya Supa. Those PETA Muthasuckas give Veganism a bad name.

CarrieLee said:

The million dollar question.

Anxiety said:

Yes I've asked a few. Some were guilty some were not. The ones who were guilty said it was either a gift, or they couldn't do everything perfect.

CarrieLee said:

Interesting array of repsonses.

MissMe said:

just walking outside to check your mail, you're probably going to crush an ant or squash a microbe or some shit. if you think about it too much, you'll go mad. but that's no excuse for people not to do what they CAN. believe me, i'm all for existential funks and the "why bother?" excuse, but if there are 10 things i SHOULD be doing to live peacefully with all living things and i am able to do at least SIX of those things, then that's better than nothing. i don't consider myself a hypocrite for not being able to do the other four. i'd be more of a hypocrite if i justified my lack of effort by saying "well, i can't do ten out of ten things, so why bother?" that's lame.
[Edited 7/26/07 10:16am]