I got an orgnote the other day by someone who said mind my own business re: a comment I had made about online romance on Aaron's topic of "Have you found love online?"

And I thought it was, quite frankly, absurd. Absurd to think that in this day and age we rely on the internet for friendship, love and intimacy. Absurd that a stranger was telling me not to interfere with someone's "love". Which by the way, I wasn't attacking, but rather questioning the rationale behind the proclamation.

"LOVE" has been cheapened through media, magazines, and pop-culture and has instead been replaced with "LUST". I dont think we know what LOVE really is -- the love between a man and woman or a woman and a woman, man and a man. Too many times our emotions sends signals to our nether regions and it tricks us into thinking that, yes, we are *IN LOVE*.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that

1) You can bypass the physical (and i don't mean looks, I mean the physical registering of how the eyes look away when your girl is embarrassed, how she flicks her hair when she's nervous, how she bites her lip when she's lying...) all the physical "talking" and language that is relayed in the flesh.

2) You can be attached to someone on that LEVEL of intimacy where you would pledge your life for them? (I'm not talking marriage -- but to me -- love is a pledge of the most sacred kind.

3) That you really know who you are talking to? Like I said in a previous post, my little sister lived with a guy for five years and never knew he cheated on her and in actuality was an evil sonofabitch who lied, cheated and was generally fucked up. He hid it well. I couldnt even tell. I never liked him, but I didnt know why.

Does anyone here sense that online romances are like having a crush on your favorite celebrity?

To put in perspective: if your 14 year old kid says they fell in love with someone online and they've never met them but are "in love" --- how many of you would backhand them back into the womb and take away their computers indefinitely?

If your just out of highschool son says "I've been in love with this girl for over a month online and I'm going to move in with her" -- how many of you would tell your kid he flunked school and make him go back another four years for being so gullible?

Look, I never said it COULDN'T happen, I just think its not realistic. If you use the internet as the "personals" yes, its possible. If you are "dating" someone and its internet only, I think its folly.

And in light of our world today, I also think its dangerous.

Just my thoughts folks, just my thoughts.

So be careful out there, and don't lay your heart on (the) line.

*

.
[This message was edited Wed Oct 2 3:54:42 PDT 2002 by suomynona]

I agree,check this out
http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_227029

.
[This message was edited Wed Oct 2 3:54:25 PDT 2002 by suomynona]

Well, I certainly believe you can form good friendships over the internet. No question.

A friendship could lead to love I suppose, but I'm with you that you couldn't really be "in love" until you have had physical interaction with the other person.

bkw said:

Absolutely... well said.

**VERY VERY LONG**

nLA, you've raised some very good points and you've inspired me to tell my horrid tale in re: Internet romance to one and all. Perhaps my buddy Wellbeyond's really touching tale about his friend has inspired such honesty in me? This all started about 2 years ago and lasted around 6 months. I'll try to make it as short yet thorough as possible!

Many of you probably know of the website thespark.com and its wacky, sick humor (The Bitch Test, The Sex Test, the Gay Test, etc.). Well, for awhile there, they had a forum where you could take a personality test and then they matched your level of compatibility with the rest of the folks who'd taken the test. You could personalize your profile and it was very cleverly, entertainingly done.

Anyway, it wasn't a dating thing per se, mostly it was fun and games between people who would never meet, one of the fun things thespark offered. There were people from all over the world posting there, and you could scan the different profiles and send each other messages of whatever nature.

December, 2000 I started corresponding with this guy from London named Craig, head of Risk Management for a Japanese bank in London (no, this isn't a story about him turning out to be an unemployed loser, everything we told each other turned out to be true, lol). He seemed perfect--well-educated, yet also worldly; a pilot; high profile businessman by day, volunteer at the kitty-shelter by weekend; very loyal to his friends; great sense of humor...I could go on and on. Anyway, we started Instant Messaging on aol for literally hours per day while I was a full time student and he was at work. Hours per day, most of the days of the week. We got to "know" one another very well--we shared the ins and outs of our daily lives--the frustrations of our days, work, school, info about our family members, friends, etc. Initially, I reassured myself that this wasn't too terribly weird--even though I'd sworn I'd never be one of those "tacky" people who finds love online (after all, [my thinking went]if you have to do that, then there must be something wrong with you which makes it impossible for you to meet someone in "real" life;) ) But I got over the stigma of it and figured it was like writing letters overseas...

After all, courtship used to be done via writing! Right? World War soldiers writing home while they were at war to their new wives (not knowing them very well since many got married right before leaving), getting to know them through their letter writing. Craig seemed so genuine--not trying to paint himself out as the perfect guy--that I really thought I was getting to know HIM after putting in hours per day with him.

At the beginning of March, 2001, we started talking on the telephone several times per week for at least an hour, hour and a half at a time. Nothing was different from online--if anything, it was better! We could hear voices, tones, laughs, etc. It definitely made us feel even more "real" to one another. Our conversations flowed, we spoke just the way we had written to one another. After about a month of that, we decided to meet at the end of April. It would be my reward for finishing my exams that year while pursuing my Master's degree. We were going to test this attraction out in person and see if there was "electricity"! We decided to meet kinda halfway--in New York City. The plan was that he would fly in from London, and I'd fly in from Michigan and stay with a friend. We felt it was time to make it a reality, since we had developed this strange sort of intimacy--had exchanged photos of one another, had started joking about marriage and children's names (yet there was an undertone of seriousness there, as well). We'd started planning trips--me coming to England, the both of us going together to Bora Bora for vacation, etc. Both of us were so nervous that it wasn't going to pan out, that the attraction wouldn't be there in person! Yet we both agreed that regardless, we had made an amazing friend and we'd have a lovely time in the City.

As the date drew nearer, I started getting cold feet. Like most women, I am terribly insecure about how I look and while I was a student I'd gained quite a bit of "stress weight". I told Craig this, told him that I was worried (he was a fitness fanatic and had dated very tall, thin women). He said all of the right things: to give him credit for not being that superficial; that sometimes people step out of their "type" when dating; that if I wanted to lose weight I should do it for myself and not because of him. My goodness, what a great guy! Basing his attraction on who I AM, not how I look! I felt much better...My mom and stepdad expressed concern for me right before I left--not so much concern for my physical safety, as with my emotional state. They knew how much I liked this guy. I told them (and I'll never forget this): "Of any of the men in my life--brothers, father, boyfriends, etc.--I really trust this guy not to hurt me. He's been so considerate of my feelings all the way through, and we've already discussed what we'd do if there weren't any "sparks". I've made a great friend, at the very least".

I flew into NYC and had a day alone with my friend there before I met Craig for dinner (which would be at one of the finest restaurants in NYC, overlooking the bridge and Manhattan). Craig and I met in the lobby of his hotel and he seemed to greet me a bit uncomfortably--I chalked it up to being English (heh heh), jet lagged and nervous. We grabbed a taxi and got to the restaurant, had a drink while waiting for our table. Perfect gentleman. Complimented me on my dress, pulled out chairs, etc. Conversation flowed pretty normally during dinner, and we discussed our plans for the following day. I figured that's when we'd really get to know each other, in the light of day and in normal, everyday type of situations. He reminded me to wear comfortable shoes because we'd be doing so much walking. He referred to my coming to England and the places he wanted me to see. There were a few awkward moments--for example, I thought I was leaning back against my hand on the seat in the booth, but accidentally I'd trapped his hand underneath mine (I SWEAR I didn't do that on purpose). I think I hurt him, actually, lol.

So it was time to go to bed--it was midnight, he was terribly jetlagged and tired, we had a long day ahead of us the following day. We'd discussed ahead of time that if we were attracted to each other, we wanted to take things slowly and not sleep with each other the first night. Very proper, yes? So when we took the car to drop me off at my friend's house first, I wasn't surprised. As the cab came to a stop, I leaned forward for a kiss, and stopped short of his face so he could decide whether he wanted to kiss my mouth or my cheek--he went for the cheek. Which was probably my first indication that perhaps things hadn't gone as well as I'd thought...but then again, it could be that British reserve thing...

The plan had been that he'd telephone me at my friend's when he got up in the morning...

I never saw him again. He never called.

After a few hours, I figured out I was being stood up. I called his mobile phone. I left a couple of phone messages at the hotel. I finally took a hand delivered note to be delivered to his hotel room (he hadn't liked his room upon arrival and had requested a change of rooms, so my in-denial brain figured perhaps he hadn't gotten any of my phone messages). My friend and her boyfriend had to cancel the plans/reservations we'd made to go out on a double-date together that night, and I tagged along with them as a third wheel to dinner and a movie.

And I flew home Sunday. Completely numb with disbelief and overwhelmed with confusion and convinced that I must be the most disgusting, ugly, fattest, most uninteresting woman to ever walk the face of the EArth! lol

On the last voicemail I left on his hotel phone, I asked him to at least email me and tell me what had happened. I'd gotten over the idea that perhaps he'd been in an accident and was lying comatose in a hospital, but I needed some sort of contact, some kind of "closure".

Monday morning I awoke to these final words from him via email: "Life is too short for explanations and recriminations. I guess we were both disappointed. I think we should leave it at that".

The final kick in the teeth--he'd paid for dinner in NYC and my false pride made me send him a check for half of it about a week after I got home. I wasn't going to let him have the satisfaction of feeling like he'd been taken advantage of financially. I figured if he had a shred of decency or guilt, he wouldn't cash the check. Especially seeing as he makes HUGE amounts of cash while I was a student, struggling along, and he knew that.

He cashed it...

(Thanks to those of you who stuck in there for all of this. It's a fucked up story, huh. And it certainly has affected me, made me really hesitate to consider people online as true "friends". My story is kinda the antithesis of Wellbeyond's, where he talks about how real Internet relationships can be...I say it's a toss up)

Love, AnotherLover

it can be real. or it can be phoney. depends on the people and intentions involved, just like face-to-face relationships.

AnotherLoverHolenYoHead said:

theC
I'm sorry to hear that.In the end it's his loss.Your a wonderful woman who can only take a man HIGHER.

AnotherLoverHolenYoHead said:

I guess that is what I was referring to in a way earlier. Although, that guy seems like a jerk to me.

As Aaron said, you meet false people in real life to. Some that lie to you to your face. I guess it's all in the rub of the green.

Craig

Thnxxx for sharing your story AnotherLoverHolenYoHead... and as for Craig... ... charming guy eh?!

Sorry it turned out that way... but you know... in those circumstances... if that's the way he dealt with things in that situation... (by not even confronting everything) then really... that's probably how he would deal with things in the future... who needs that.. you know? , truly HIS loss.

I think many can relate to that kind of experience with someone... of course the individual details will be different, but the emotions are often very much the same... and that experience isn't limited to an online encounter, of course it happens in real life too...

Well... to balance things out... how about a story where things actually worked out? *shock and horror* - it can happen!

Firstly…. do I think love can be found online? Absolutely…. Do I think it can be maintained online? Well that is a different matter…

There are many stories of love been found online, and I’ll share one briefly with you. (I’ll try not to bore ya with too many details) A friend of mine met her boyfriend online (in a chat room) in 1998… and their relationship was restricted to an online relationship for about a year and a half… and they really believed they had fell in love online… They didn’t live in the same continent, let alone the same country, however that didn’t seem to deter them much.

At the same time they didn’t put their lives on hold… they had full lives before they met online, and the same remained true after they met online… meaning they didn’t stop living and they didn’t depend on the computer and the people on the other side of that computer to fulfill them.

However, they got closer and closer as the months went by… and knew that what they were feeling was more than just a virtual fling…. So Marco went and bought a plane ticket, with the intention to meet this girl who had made him feel like he hadn’t felt before.

To cut a long story short(so short I'm not doing their story any justice, but bare with me!)… a few months after they met in real life, Marco immigrated and they’ve been living together now for 3 years… very happily I might add… they really make an amazing couple, I have no doubt they'll marry...

So I guess the answer depends on how the relationship progresses. There are some who have the intention of finding love online and leaving it as an online thing… and good for them, if that’s what fulfills them, then that is their choice. Whatever gets you by I guess (whatever floats the boat …. Personally though, that wouldn’t be enough for me… (not in the long term) I think love can definitely be found online… but restricting it to an online thing indefinitely would only be maladaptive in many cases… and certainly would rob one of the full experience of love in the long term… for me anyway. So I guess it depends on the attitude of the two people involved and what they want from the online relationship… Like I said on Wellbeyonds thread, people online and people offline can present themselves in many ways, some honest, and some false... but in the end it really does come down to the fact that many people do form extremely strong bonds with others online that are based on real emotions and feelings ... and to dimiss these bonds flippantly as if they are meaningless and neglible is simply wrong in many cases. One can be skeptical and discerning, in fact, this is often healthy, but one shouldn't be cynical about it, love can be found in all sorts of strange places...

Bottom line for me though is that yea, one can find love online… but if it stays online… and doesn’t transcend beyond the keyboard … then ultimately I think it will stagnate… because you’re always then limited by the confines of the internet… and in the end, if one wants real love (and all the good and bad that comes with it)…, then I think, in most cases. it needs to move beyond words on a monitor… you need to explore all the other avenues involved… , if you want the full experience….
.
Ok... I had a picture of them up... however, didn't realise how big it would be .. so yea, I dropped the visual aid.
[This message was edited Tue Sep 10 23:59:23 PDT 2002 by Diva]

Anotherlover - thank you for opening up and sharing your tale.

I'm gonna go mull over it now... it's a lot to swallow.

I don't know what to say...It makes me sad.
I hope the friends I have made here are real friends.
When you hear things like this, it makes you stop and
think...because there are flesh and blood people all
around you...people you ignore for people that you really
really don't know.

At least I have met Rio and NuPwrSoul in person (and
others).I really admire them.

I made friends with Saffireseven and Pardise4ver and
arranged to spend time with them at the celly...two of
the nicest people I've ever met...and Jose, Saffire's
beautiful husband.And then there is Mr7, MightBQueen.
and Housequake...but they are all my spiritual brothers
and sisters from Saffireseven on down.

Even though I am not looking for a love connection, this
discussion did give me something to think about. I
should not neglect developing inter-personal
relationships. Friendships where you don't have to use
and and to express feelings.

.

theC said:

Ah, that's sweet of you to say! I will never know exactly what the reason was that this guy wasn't attracted to me in person. Maybe it was my personality, my looks, the awkward situation...I don't know. Obviously, I've dated others in the meantime (whom I did NOT meet online, lol), and realize that I'm attractive and not some disgusting freak of nature.

bkw said:

I think one of the biggest differences with online dating is that, especially if you're long distances from one another like this guy and I were, you might not meet right away. So all of this intensity builds via email, you form expectations and it can put quite a bit of pressure on the people involved. Whereas, if you met someone in person first, just within the normal activities of life, you could determine relatively quickly whether or not you were interested. Then either pursue it, or move along...

Ah, my dearest Diva I have heard lots of these types of Internet success stories, and I think it's wonderful. Used to be, we were restricted to our immediate surroundings when it came to friends, lovers, etc., while we'd always dream our Mr./Ms. Right was out there somewhere...now it's so much easier to access them from across the world/country! If it's the right person, it's SO worth it. On the other hand, it takes longer to determine whether they're "right" for you when online, usually longer than it would've if it had been in person all along.

After all, I've predicted that you and Moonbeam will end up married with several children

Natsume said:

Don't choke!

You know what's always puzzled me? Why did he get so into detail during dinner about our plans for the next day? Why remind me to wear comfy shoes? Why talk about when I come to England to visit him, when apparently he wasn't feelin' it? Even if he was just being polite to my face until he could get away--it wouldn't necessitate that kind of talk. What a big weirdo!

SensualMelody said:

I think events like Celebration are ideal for meeting online friends in person. It's a common denominator between people and such a positive event. Also, there are other people around to sort of act as "social cushions" (heh, just made that word up!)

I think my story ultimately boils down to how this guy chose to handle his disappointment, and it comes down to his emotional maturity level. Deep down, he knows what he did to me in NY was just unforgiveable and wrong, but he selfishly has to tell himself he deserved to behave that way in order to live with himself. I would highly recommend that anyone who meets an online romance in person, first ask themselves how they deal with disappointment...

AnotherLoverHolenYoHead said:

You have a good point, AnotherLover... you obviously cannot measure physical attraction or physical cues over the internet... also, the majority of the meaning of human communication is non-verbal, so things are very different in person.

I do, however, believe that you can meet wonderful people on the internet... but just like everywhere, there are good and bad people. The internet provides an easy forum for deception though and it saddens me to think that people would purposely hurt others.

I am quite sure that many people have met people over the internet and hit it off then met in person and found that they were MORE compatible then they even thought that they were. There are a great number of honest and caring people too... not everyone is an asshole. I tend to be a very cynical person, so the idea of online romance has always seemed very silly and shady to me, but there are certainly exceptions to the rule and I believe that you can meet great friends or lovers online.

...and that guy that you talked about in your earlier post was a fucking dick. There is no reason to disrespect someone like he did, no matter what. What I am saying has nothing to do with internet vs. "real" meetings, it has to do with respect. There is no reason to purposely hurt someone and that is what he did.

Emotions are emotions, it doesn't matter where they started... internet or otherwise... and it is not right to hurt someone knowingly. I am not saying that you should be with someone that you do not want to, but you at least owe them the courtesy of talking to them. Personally, I would NEVER be discourteous like the asshole that you mentioned, AnotherLover... I am very sorry that he treated you like you didn't have feelings.

Yes it can work out and it can be real. In fact my SO (Significant Other) is an online relationship made real. We've been living together almost two years and have a child together. And in his eyes and the laws eyes in SC we are considered common law husband and wife and he introduces me as his wife. After 2 years he still tells me I'm cute (hate that word but won't bore you with the details) or that I have cute mannerisms like getting excited over the small things in life like a little girl.

I've also had the opposite experience but won't go into details there either. I still consider him to be a good man, but for whatever reasons it didn't work out. I still wish him well in his life. I was hurt by the experience and perhaps it even caused me to close up more, not be so trusting sometimes. No one wants to put their feelings out on the line to only have them crushed. I guess it comes down to what people are willing to experience. I do believe however that there has to be some type of physical encounter. It's best to meet and see if the meeting of the minds can relate itself and become a meeting of the heart, soul, and body.

There are those that I find attractive because of the way their minds work, and because of who they are or portray themselves to be online. A great mind and a great sense of spirituality is very attractive to me. Someone that I can laugh with and tease as well. And I found that with my SO. After 2 years we still find new and exciting things about each other and that is a plus.

So yes they can work out. It takes work but I do believe that a physical meeting is crucial. When you meet you discover certain mannerisms that may or may not be appealing to you and body language is just as important as sharing words, if not more important in some cases.

IceNine said:

You know, I hadn't made any sort of decision the night we had dinner as far as whether or not it was going to "work", or if I was attracted to him in person or not. I was thinking I'd get a better idea of that the next day, spending all day together. So I don't even know if I'd have been into him in-person either, for whatever reasons, but I certainly would've never, ever ditched him. Spending a platonic day together in NYC, or at the very least a telephone message cancelling, would've been the "civilized" way of doing things.

i believe that it is possible 2 make a friend or get 2 know some1 online...but a physical meeting is neccessary 2 truly call it love...much of human communication is body language and physical mannerisms...i believe that it is somewhat silly 2 plan 2 marry(or even live with) some1 you have never interacted w/ without a monitor and keyboard..."love" that has never transcended online interaction is silly...like children playing house...but that being said a good friend of mine is supposedly going 2 marry her internet "love"...i have spoken my piece but she is an adult and can make her own decisions...so in the spirit of being a true friend i will support her choice...even if i personally don't approve of it...i'll even try not 2 rub it in her face if it crashes and burns like i think it will:)

AnotherLoverHolenYoHead said:

Totally...a weirdo and a HUGE coward...and what a heartbreak. I'm sorry that you went through such a terrible thing, but it sounds like you've healed

AnotherLoverHolenYoHead said:

Exactly... that was a cowardly way to do things. He was certainly not a "man" in any sense of the word.

Thanks for sharing AnotherLoverHolenYoHead!

I guess it just goes to show that he wasn't what he portrayed, aye...

I however, am not interested in developing any kind of internet love, or affair. I do like that I have met many wonderful people..
And as for me what you hear is what you get no less, no more.

OK!!!
Most of you lost me at Hello...
So, Let me say dis, about dat...
yes i've heard the horrid tale of woe
that are connected to such indevers.
to exspect a romance to spring from a keyboard,
one has to trust that they are also
in close running to hit the LOTTO!!!
IT COULD HAPPEN...
However,
with whut's been said about people
no longer feeling the need to do the human thangs in life,
ie. go out side and interact with the real world,
maybe we have found the answer to OVERPOPULATION.
unless one wants to make Cyber Babies, as i have done many
times in the org.
BUT BEWARE...
one day your pc may demand CHILD SUPPORT!!!
and every pc that was on at the time will have a baby belonging to you...

IceNine said:

Precisely, on those terms, yes I agree it can happen. Complete and total common sense. It would be the equivalent of having a pen pal, conversing and ultimately liking them -- but at some point the meeting is crucial. I've known far too many men and women who have developed "feelings" over the net and then when they've met in person... **fizzle**

AnotherLover: Thanks for sharing what should be a cautionary tale for all. Not because it was an online thing, but because it shows you that not every man is a MAN and not every woman is a LADY.

This story could transcend into a "real" relationship and be just as valuable. words can be cheap and deceitful, actions manifest the intent. I'm glad that you've learned from this experience and it is woeful that so many do not reap the benefits from their mistakes.

I spend alot of time on the computer because of my job, and I like sharing, chatting and occassionally playfighting with you guys over the net. Some of your personalities or "alter egos" may not encompass completely who YOU are, but it does manifest a part of you, no matter how much you've enlarged it for "shock" value. (Except Pook, I think he's the real deal through and through )

I'd love to meet some of you in person, and as Wellbeyond and others have said, there can be a BOND that forms because we all connect on some level or another -- we're human and we seek attention from each other -- but none of you have heard me belch or have seen me scratch my ass. I may be slovenly or neat -- handsome or deformed or anything in between. LOL But I do know that I don't come online to seek friendship or romance. I force myself to do that in the "real world" so I don't lose and forget moments of realness, real rejection, real awkwardness, real dilemmas of what to wear (yes boys have that problem too).

Keep it real ya'll and thanks for sharing. Know this world is cold inside and out and we are the only ones that can keep ourselves warm within.

TheC: you got it dawg.