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PrintableIf the majority of Americans want universal health care, fine.
AS long as the % of deduction from the paycheck is across the board. I don't understand with the system as described, when you can see any physician, at any hospital, there isn't a waiting list for the best guy in town.... of course, there's private insurance that is purchased, and gets faster care. | |
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Imago said: I have no idea if the physicians are in it for the money or not, but I suspect the insurance companies are.
But with About 42.6 million people not insured, it doesn't much matter what the service is like (and I haven't received good service in 7/8 years mind you), there is a serious problem to be addressed. The week I went to England my sister walked into a clinic and walked out with meds for her son within an hour and paid nothing. She was very happy with the service. "There Is No Free Lunch"!! | |
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xplnyrslf said: If the majority of Americans want universal health care, fine.
AS long as the % of deduction from the paycheck is across the board. I don't understand with the system as described, when you can see any physician, at any hospital, there isn't a waiting list for the best guy in town.... of course, there's private insurance that is purchased, and gets faster care. She was in and out in an hour. I was very specific with asking her about service, time, etc. | |
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xplnyrslf said: Imago said: I have no idea if the physicians are in it for the money or not, but I suspect the insurance companies are.
But with About 42.6 million people not insured, it doesn't much matter what the service is like (and I haven't received good service in 7/8 years mind you), there is a serious problem to be addressed. The week I went to England my sister walked into a clinic and walked out with meds for her son within an hour and paid nothing. She was very happy with the service. "There Is No Free Lunch"!! 42.6 million uninsured. | |
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Total U.S. health care spending -- by government, employers, insurance and individuals -- was an average of $6,102 per person in 2004. That was more than the spending on each person in every other country, after adjusting for the local cost of living.
http://www.freep.com/apps.../705160357 I just can't see how the US health care system can be defensible. I really can't. | |
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I don't understand how it costs $9.50 to see a movie. This one happened to be on youtube and got pulled by Lion's Gate, the distributor. If it's a public service creation, "everyone needs to know this...we're doing this to help others... not in it to making $$$" , only PHYSICIANS in the U.S. are that low.
If any industry needs to be scrutinized, it's the movie industry. Talk about tax dodges, with expenses, and high maintenance stuff. Except, the movie industry won't do an expose on itself. | |
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Imago said: xplnyrslf said: If the majority of Americans want universal health care, fine.
AS long as the % of deduction from the paycheck is across the board. I don't understand with the system as described, when you can see any physician, at any hospital, there isn't a waiting list for the best guy in town.... of course, there's private insurance that is purchased, and gets faster care. She was in and out in an hour. I was very specific with asking her about service, time, etc. In a system where you can see any physician at any hospital.....you don't think the best known doc isn't going to have a waiting list?? If it's a sore throat, nausea/vomiting, diarrhea etc. anyone will do. If you're REALLY sick, need open heart surgery, have an aneurysm, brain tumor..... you're going to want the most reputable. And in that system he/she will have a waiting list. | |
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xplnyrslf said: Imago said: She was in and out in an hour. I was very specific with asking her about service, time, etc. In a system where you can see any physician at any hospital.....you don't think the best known doc isn't going to have a waiting list?? If it's a sore throat, nausea/vomiting, diarrhea etc. anyone will do. If you're REALLY sick, need open heart surgery, have an aneurysm, brain tumor..... you're going to want the most reputable. And in that system he/she will have a waiting list. The alternative of having 42+ million not be part of that system just doesn't sit well with me. So yes, I would still go with Europe's system. | |
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Imago said: xplnyrslf said: In a system where you can see any physician at any hospital.....you don't think the best known doc isn't going to have a waiting list?? If it's a sore throat, nausea/vomiting, diarrhea etc. anyone will do. If you're REALLY sick, need open heart surgery, have an aneurysm, brain tumor..... you're going to want the most reputable. And in that system he/she will have a waiting list. The alternative of having 42+ million not be part of that system just doesn't sit well with me. So yes, I would still go with Europe's system. Who's going to pay for it??? You need to get out your checkbook. I don't get it. At the local trauma center, anyone without insurance arriving in the ED, regardless of citizenship, gets treated. That's all. Gov't paid insurance.....No one gets turned away and there are very few "self employed". Life's different where I live. I said, if the majority of citizens want national health insurance, FINE. And if there's a "brain drain" of specialists in the US, with universal health care, don't wonder why.....Michael Moore can interview whomever is practicing medicine, like the interviews he did in Europe. Where, in France, college is paid for....and the debt is.....billions [Edited 7/1/07 21:02pm] | |
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Britain and France have a huge tax on citizens. Since industries carry the burdon of health care tax paid in France, there aren't too many companies moving in. And with certain auto companies in the States not doing too well (and heading for bankruptcy), which have provided health insurance, tax revenue, for alot of people, etc, things are going to get ugly.
If you can xpln how the French,who have an ideal system, can pay off the billions, I'll vote for universal health care here in the States. BY THE WAY. Cuba is considered "ideal" by Michael Moore, and has less ranking on health care than the US. What's that about? 
And CNN itself, thinks his data is accurate... [Edited 7/1/07 22:05pm] | |
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Imago said: xplnyrslf said: There's no point in getting upset by a "documentary" with skewed information.
"There's No Free Lunch" to quote Milton Friedman. The Brits and French pay 10% of their income for government health care. Although the system is depicted as efficient, it's not. In Britain, 1 million people are on waiting lists and another 200,000 are waiting to get on a waiting list. 100,000 surgeries are cancelled due to shortages. Certain drugs for treatment aren't available depending on where you live. The French health care system has a 2.7 billion dollar defecit. In Cuba, when Fidel was ill last year, he flew in a specialist from Spain. I still find that to be the lesser of two evils. Americans are now spending money to fly to Thailand to have surgery performed because it is a fraction of the cost in the US, and the service is superior. Though this is more an indication of the strong US dollar vs. Thai Baht as they're basically getting luxury service at rock bottom prices, rather than taking advantage of socialized health care. But, for me, I absolutely dread going to the hospital becuase of the bad service, the misery of the entire process, and all the hidden fees the despite the fact that I have more health care coverage than Liz Taylor has ex-husbands. I'm not saying that the systems abroad are perfect. Certainly there's room for improvement, but when we pay more than any other country in the world for health care and have the fewest per capita covered..that's serious problem. Also, though Moore doesn't cover the whole range of topics, as he DOES keep the psuedo-documentaries narrowly focused to meet his objectives, so far fact checks have not revealed any glaring false facts. http://www.cnn.com/2007/H...index.html But again, it doesn't matter to me that he breaks down every angle or side of the issue, nor that he is dead on....what I appreciate is that he is forcing the issue into the light, when it should have been there to begin with. I'm curious about the"bad service"..... [b][Edited 7/1/07 22:14pm] | |
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if i had a choice between paying taxes to fund a failing war, to fund corporate welfare, to fund pork projects or to fund universal healthcare, i think the answer is pretty clear.
some imply that doctors for some reason will no longer be earning a good living - ask any doctor in Europe, they are doing quite well for themselves, still enjoying their chosen profession, and there seems to be no brain drain. there is a lot of fearmongering about a single-payer system, and when there's a lot of that going on, it's always wise to look behind the curtain... supposedly, we'll all die while we're waiting in line to see a good doctor - i'll have to call bullshit on that one. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare (despite its significantly lower overhead) will cost everybody boatloads of money. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare causes a massive brain drain to other countries. personally, i know of one Canadian physician who has moved to the US - i'm sure there are more, but hardly a brain drain. so who is perpetuating that idea? corporate interests vs. the people's interest - it's that simple. | |
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Spoke with an anesthesiologist who worked at a surgicenter back east. He put two kids through college with all the Canadians coming across the border for glaucoma and cataract surgery. They didn't want to wait 18 months, and came to the US....
I have no problem with the current system being improved so better coverage for all, is obtainable. I have a problem with a movie that depicts universal care as ideal ,"free", and everyone who buys-in to it, without question. After working 10 hours today, for sure, there are physicians who are in it for the $. Not the majority of those I work with. Physicians who work ridiculous hours sometimes 20h straight, doing orthopedic, neuro, general, vascular surgery. Called all hours of the night. I'm talking about a teaching hospital where the salary is a hell of alot LESS than if they worked in the private sector. These folks are driven by commitment and passion for what they do. And it's a cold day in hell, I'll sit back for the sake of being a minority, on this topic. For Moore to take the opinion of some physician in Britain,"US physicians" are in it for the money, put it in his movie, and not bother to come to a hospital such as the one I work at, is pathetic. I sincerely hope, when he needs immediate surgery, he flies his fat ass to Cuba. Another thing, I was told by the same doc above mentioned, with the universal health system, after a certain age, some surgeries such as joint replacement is denied. BASED on age. Particularily the elderly. Here, that would be grounds for a lawsuit. Justifiably. All I'm doing, is giving you a different view. [Edited 7/2/07 22:27pm] | |
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IrresistibleB1tch said: if i had a choice between paying taxes to fund a failing war, to fund corporate welfare, to fund pork projects or to fund universal healthcare, i think the answer is pretty clear.
some imply that doctors for some reason will no longer be earning a good living - ask any doctor in Europe, they are doing quite well for themselves, still enjoying their chosen profession, and there seems to be no brain drain. there is a lot of fearmongering about a single-payer system, and when there's a lot of that going on, it's always wise to look behind the curtain... supposedly, we'll all die while we're waiting in line to see a good doctor - i'll have to call bullshit on that one. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare (despite its significantly lower overhead) will cost everybody boatloads of money. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare causes a massive brain drain to other countries. personally, i know of one Canadian physician who has moved to the US - i'm sure there are more, but hardly a brain drain. so who is perpetuating that idea? corporate interests vs. the people's interest - it's that simple. Take a look at.... ummm, how can I pussy foot around THIS one? the Brits and the practicing physician interviewed....I'd like to say don't get pissed, but that's a foregone conclusion.  He has great teeth?
[Edited 7/2/07 21:42pm] [Edited 7/2/07 21:42pm] | |
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With regards to the interview Moore did with the wife of the husband who was denied a bone marrow transplantation: Seven,eight years ago, bone marrow transplants were done in pediatric patients with specific cancers at the hospital where I work. The experience was brutal and the success rate wasn't good. It's come a long way and NOW with advancements, bone marrow transplantation programs are reputable. There was a point in time where NO insurance company would cover the surgery. To suggest it was based on "race", because the husband was black, is ludicrous. That's why I questiion how long ago, are the scenarios of those interviewed.... [Edited 7/2/07 22:10pm] | |
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gemini13 said: xplnyrslf said: Moore is no authority on health care. He presents a positive view of government provided insurance in some foreign countries, (the size of the state of Texas, or smaller), and NO downsides, which exist. He depicts all negative aspects of health care in the US, despite the fact our health care industry is one of the best. The Sauds?? Guess where, with all the $$$ in the world, they go for treatment?? Not France. Not Canada. Nor Great Britain. Here. Where I work, no one gets turned away, including the "in labor, here shopping for baby clothes" foreign national. I know individuals who keep their work hours low, so they can qualify for welfare and gov't paid health care. Everyone gets the same quality treatment. In some European countries, with nationalized health care, the wealthy have supplemental insurance and better, quicker, care. Canada the exception. Moore doesn't present the other side of the story. He has a slanted view of it all.  I'm sad that you're arguing the other side of the coin, but also  glad that you are. Does that make sense?I just hope everyone who has responded to the thread, continues to respond, because I work with individuals with personal experience with the universal health care system. One physician from Sweeden stated it's all the same: either the health care executives get $$ or the politicians making the decisions on what health care you get, are. | |
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xplnyrslf said: IrresistibleB1tch said: if i had a choice between paying taxes to fund a failing war, to fund corporate welfare, to fund pork projects or to fund universal healthcare, i think the answer is pretty clear.
some imply that doctors for some reason will no longer be earning a good living - ask any doctor in Europe, they are doing quite well for themselves, still enjoying their chosen profession, and there seems to be no brain drain. there is a lot of fearmongering about a single-payer system, and when there's a lot of that going on, it's always wise to look behind the curtain... supposedly, we'll all die while we're waiting in line to see a good doctor - i'll have to call bullshit on that one. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare (despite its significantly lower overhead) will cost everybody boatloads of money. who is perpetuating this idea? universal healthcare causes a massive brain drain to other countries. personally, i know of one Canadian physician who has moved to the US - i'm sure there are more, but hardly a brain drain. so who is perpetuating that idea? corporate interests vs. the people's interest - it's that simple. Take a look at.... ummm, how can I pussy foot around THIS one? the Brits and the practicing physician interviewed....I'd like to say don't get pissed, but that's a foregone conclusion. He has great teeth?
[Edited 7/2/07 21:42pm] [Edited 7/2/07 21:42pm] and this has WHAT exactly to do with what i said?  | |
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